5 ms·

Stallman's character is one of the reasons I have repeatedly considered establishing some kind of "Church of Computing", i.e. an organized "religion" solely to

Stallman's character is one of the reasons I have repeatedly considered establishing some kind of "Church of Computing", i.e. an organized "religion" solely to secure religious protections and rights as they apply to the modern world. For example, the right not to have to use some random company's app to interact with a government agency or a public school (and agree to said company's EULA, etc). It only takes a few dozen people to create a church with legal standing in many countries. The FSF and the EFF are nice, but churches have additional legal protection for their adherents. It does sort of vaguely border on religious zeal at this point. I've told companies they can either talk to me on Signal (or email), wait til I arrive on site, or find another contractor, but I will not use WhatsApp no matter how much they pay. This also applies to, for example, Microsoft/Google/Amazon products where learning their APIs and products mean my human capital, my skills, can be revoked by someone I never met, made valueless, my income made moot, in a sense. Imagine having invested substantial time and effort into a proprietary ecosystem that was killed (by the company or its competition) and not being able to quickly leap into a competing esoteric, obtuse product.

luma 3y ago
You refuse to learn something because you are afraid that that thing might change and require you to learn new things? Maybe this isn’t the best industry for you.
- omgmajk 3y ago
  This is not at all what he said, he refuses to use (learn) it because of ideological reasons. That is not the same. I can relate to some extent.
- hkt 3y ago
  He's very much not saying this, he's saying he doesn't want a small number of very large companies to be in control of whether or not his skills are valuable at market. This could broadly be construed as an argument against the entire cloud/SaaS/PaaS/IaaS market, but it is still a very valid criticism. Most IT people are in some way subordinated by massive companies, and free/open source software is an escape hatch on that, because there's not a relationship of exploitation or control between users and community projects.
- bobsmooth 3y ago
  WhatsApp isn't something you have to learn.
  - luma 3y ago
    I don't think anyone was talking about learning to use whatsapp. Grandfather post directly says they won't bother to learn how to use public clouds as an example, because the APIs might change. That's their decision, but it's a career limiting one, akin to saying the VAX has everything I need and it won't be changing so I refuse to learn any other system.
    - kortilla 3y ago
      You’re not comprehending the post. It’s not about changing APIs. It’s about proprietary control over who is allowed to use them. Free software isn’t about API churn, it’s about rights.
      - luma 3y ago
        I feel like I comprehend, I just disagree. It's fine to be an absolutist about these sorts of things but I have to put dinner on the table and my customers run the kit they run and I don't get to declare if it's "free enough" for me to interface with.
        kortilla 3y ago
        If you comprehend, why is your post about changing APIs?
- garba_dlm 3y ago
  I refuse to learn anything about any propietary technologies unless you pay me for every minute I spend doing it. and I'll probably get right on to forgetting it if you stop paying me, but won't really cuz my memory and experience are mine and Severance (tv series) is still fiction
spiritplumber 3y ago
You have visited the EFF's headquarters, yes?
- remram 3y ago
  Or Internet Archive's, in an actual church in San Francisco.
bawolff 3y ago
This feels like one of those - programmers think they understand how laws work but don't actually.
- PostOnce 3y ago
  Even the pastafarians get to wear strainers on their heads in driver's license photos. Some religions are exempt from paying social security. A group of adamant people is a powerful thing.
  - 93po 3y ago
    Not paying SS is something I need to look into. As someone in their mid 30s I'm never going to see a penny from it.
- 93po 3y ago
  I feel like this is one of those comments that thinks they add substance or discussion but doesn't. Please elaborate on why this is an inaccurate view instead of just saying "you're wrong", which adds nothing.
garba_dlm 3y ago
what we really need, is for "engineering" as a discipline to rise to the same status as arts and sciences. computer science is not real. computers are not found in nature. they're not a natural object, hence the methodology of study (from a philosophy of science standpoint) cannot be the same. similarly to how math is not subjected to experimentation; but to intelligibility (a modern math proof is accepted if mathematical "peers" understand it and agree with it). so can't computer be subjected to experimentation as a matter of studying them. they're not found they're made. so the "experimentation" is really end-to-end testings; a philosophically distinct practice from a physics experiment (which is often just measuring something extremely precisely) maybe I should ponder on the "philosophy of chemistry" which also blurs this line between "making" and "experimenting"??? you jest about making a religion (which funnily RMS also does); but recall that Academia (and RMS is an academic) was started by religions, which means if there's a faculty of computers, then it already IS a church... an academic church 2.0
- fennecfoxy 3y ago
  Well, realistically we need the world to care about STEM as much as it cares about the Kardashians. Almost every human being reaps the benefits of our technological and scientific progress in some way, but only a small portion of us contribute to it. Of course, there are plenty of other important areas of work, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to have a higher percentage of people be interested in this stuff. It's just so crazy, that using "cutting edge integrated circuit R&D" as an example, there are maybe what, a dozen people in the world who are intensely familiar with that ecosystem? And yet it forms one of the pillars of our entire modern world. I think people in the medical field are probably the most important, though. Can't do science or write code if you're sick, so I have an intense appreciation for them; they help all of us.
  - garba_dlm 3y ago
    as a person who has wished they could have studied microchip design, I assure you that the fact there are so little people able to do that is no accident. the less people can do it the more valuable the skill is, or maybe they're really smart people and I just ain't got what it takes.
Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
You might want to visit this link: https://stallman.org/saint.html https://stallman.org/saint.html "Sainthood in the Church of Emacs requires living a life of purity—but in the Church of Emacs, this does not require celibacy (a sigh of relief is heard). Being holy in our church means exorcizing whatever evil, proprietary operating systems have possessed computers that are under your control, or set up for your regular use; installing a holy (i.e., wholly) free operating system (GNU/Linux is a good choice); and using and installing only free software with and on the system. Note that tablets and mobile phones are computers and this vow includes them. Join the Church of Emacs, and you too can be a saint! People sometimes ask if St IGNUcius is wearing an old computer disk platter. That is no computer disk, that is my halo — but it was a disk platter in a former life. No information is available about what kind of computer it came from or what data was stored on it. However, you can rest assured that no non-free software is readable from it today. In addition to saints, the Church of Emacs also has a hymn—the Free Software Song. (No gods yet, though.) Hear the song sung by Saint IGNUcius himself."
- 93po 3y ago
  Does this mean that adherents can't actually text or call via carrier? Or have a data plan? I believe every modem-chip used to do this has proprietary code.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
    Acolytes of Church of Emacs can use mobile phones, it is considered a minor sin. But, of course, this prohibits a path to sainthood for them.
- PostOnce 3y ago
  Father forgive me for I have sinned: I am still using a graphical IDE, and have tried vi, but have never tried emacs. I am installing it now.

luma 3y ago

You refuse to learn something because you are afraid that that thing might change and require you to learn new things? Maybe this isn’t the best industry for you.

omgmajk 3y ago
This is not at all what he said, he refuses to use (learn) it because of ideological reasons. That is not the same. I can relate to some extent.
hkt 3y ago
He's very much not saying this, he's saying he doesn't want a small number of very large companies to be in control of whether or not his skills are valuable at market. This could broadly be construed as an argument against the entire cloud/SaaS/PaaS/IaaS market, but it is still a very valid criticism. Most IT people are in some way subordinated by massive companies, and free/open source software is an escape hatch on that, because there's not a relationship of exploitation or control between users and community projects.
bobsmooth 3y ago
WhatsApp isn't something you have to learn.
- luma 3y ago
  I don't think anyone was talking about learning to use whatsapp. Grandfather post directly says they won't bother to learn how to use public clouds as an example, because the APIs might change. That's their decision, but it's a career limiting one, akin to saying the VAX has everything I need and it won't be changing so I refuse to learn any other system.
  - kortilla 3y ago
    You’re not comprehending the post. It’s not about changing APIs. It’s about proprietary control over who is allowed to use them. Free software isn’t about API churn, it’s about rights.
    - luma 3y ago
      I feel like I comprehend, I just disagree. It's fine to be an absolutist about these sorts of things but I have to put dinner on the table and my customers run the kit they run and I don't get to declare if it's "free enough" for me to interface with.
      - kortilla 3y ago
        If you comprehend, why is your post about changing APIs?
garba_dlm 3y ago
I refuse to learn anything about any propietary technologies unless you pay me for every minute I spend doing it. and I'll probably get right on to forgetting it if you stop paying me, but won't really cuz my memory and experience are mine and Severance (tv series) is still fiction

spiritplumber 3y ago

You have visited the EFF's headquarters, yes?

remram 3y ago
Or Internet Archive's, in an actual church in San Francisco.

bawolff 3y ago

This feels like one of those - programmers think they understand how laws work but don't actually.

PostOnce 3y ago
Even the pastafarians get to wear strainers on their heads in driver's license photos. Some religions are exempt from paying social security. A group of adamant people is a powerful thing.
- 93po 3y ago
  Not paying SS is something I need to look into. As someone in their mid 30s I'm never going to see a penny from it.
93po 3y ago
I feel like this is one of those comments that thinks they add substance or discussion but doesn't. Please elaborate on why this is an inaccurate view instead of just saying "you're wrong", which adds nothing.

garba_dlm 3y ago

what we really need, is for "engineering" as a discipline to rise to the same status as arts and sciences. computer science is not real. computers are not found in nature. they're not a natural object, hence the methodology of study (from a philosophy of science standpoint) cannot be the same. similarly to how math is not subjected to experimentation; but to intelligibility (a modern math proof is accepted if mathematical "peers" understand it and agree with it). so can't computer be subjected to experimentation as a matter of studying them. they're not found they're made. so the "experimentation" is really end-to-end testings; a philosophically distinct practice from a physics experiment (which is often just measuring something extremely precisely) maybe I should ponder on the "philosophy of chemistry" which also blurs this line between "making" and "experimenting"??? you jest about making a religion (which funnily RMS also does); but recall that Academia (and RMS is an academic) was started by religions, which means if there's a faculty of computers, then it already IS a church... an academic church 2.0

fennecfoxy 3y ago
Well, realistically we need the world to care about STEM as much as it cares about the Kardashians. Almost every human being reaps the benefits of our technological and scientific progress in some way, but only a small portion of us contribute to it. Of course, there are plenty of other important areas of work, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to have a higher percentage of people be interested in this stuff. It's just so crazy, that using "cutting edge integrated circuit R&D" as an example, there are maybe what, a dozen people in the world who are intensely familiar with that ecosystem? And yet it forms one of the pillars of our entire modern world. I think people in the medical field are probably the most important, though. Can't do science or write code if you're sick, so I have an intense appreciation for them; they help all of us.
- garba_dlm 3y ago
  as a person who has wished they could have studied microchip design, I assure you that the fact there are so little people able to do that is no accident. the less people can do it the more valuable the skill is, or maybe they're really smart people and I just ain't got what it takes.

Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago

You might want to visit this link: https://stallman.org/saint.html https://stallman.org/saint.html "Sainthood in the Church of Emacs requires living a life of purity—but in the Church of Emacs, this does not require celibacy (a sigh of relief is heard). Being holy in our church means exorcizing whatever evil, proprietary operating systems have possessed computers that are under your control, or set up for your regular use; installing a holy (i.e., wholly) free operating system (GNU/Linux is a good choice); and using and installing only free software with and on the system. Note that tablets and mobile phones are computers and this vow includes them. Join the Church of Emacs, and you too can be a saint! People sometimes ask if St IGNUcius is wearing an old computer disk platter. That is no computer disk, that is my halo — but it was a disk platter in a former life. No information is available about what kind of computer it came from or what data was stored on it. However, you can rest assured that no non-free software is readable from it today. In addition to saints, the Church of Emacs also has a hymn—the Free Software Song. (No gods yet, though.) Hear the song sung by Saint IGNUcius himself."

93po 3y ago
Does this mean that adherents can't actually text or call via carrier? Or have a data plan? I believe every modem-chip used to do this has proprietary code.
- Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
  Acolytes of Church of Emacs can use mobile phones, it is considered a minor sin. But, of course, this prohibits a path to sainthood for them.
PostOnce 3y ago
Father forgive me for I have sinned: I am still using a graphical IDE, and have tried vi, but have never tried emacs. I am installing it now.