5 ms·

There are phases in which change happens: Stallman's preaching to people who can actually make free software (eg, people you might find on HN) has accomplished

by hkt 3y ago

There are phases in which change happens: Stallman's preaching to people who can actually make free software (eg, people you might find on HN) has accomplished a huge amount of capacity building. He's tremendously good at encouraging it, and always has been. That provides the raw material for people who are perhaps a little more adoption focused (and apt) which is work that can't happen if there's no capacity.

hutzlibu 3y ago
Well, I am also good at making software, share the goal of a world where everyone fully controls their devices - yet I am appalled by many things around him. Mostly the "superior" ethical stance. You do things this (my) way, then it is ethical and you love freedom or you are not ethical and don't want freedom. Sorry, but I just have some different opinions about some things, but I rather feel not like working together with people who consider me lower. So the result is not cooperation but lot's of fragmentation in the free software/open source world. I do not think that helped the common cause. Otherwise we would not be where we are. Lots of open source and free software for tech people - everything closed down for ordinary people.
- hkt 3y ago
  Yet there are enormous amounts of cooperation within free software. There are the various organisations like the GNOME foundation, the Free Software Foundation, Debian, and many more beside. Thousands of volunteers keep these things going to produce well integrated, usable software. Not to mention the common principles in most free software around interoperability and loose coupling. Apple and Microsoft (and the rest) have less to do on this, because they don't have to make their software nearly as generic. Microsoft famously fixed something in SimCity at the OS level. Google and Facebook don't have to worry about interoperability, which undoubtedly removes a lot of complexity for them. In some ways, free software has a greater burden to carry. The problem with usability in free software is not one of culture or cooperation, it is one of capital. The fact is, Apple and Microsoft have at this point invested hundreds of billions in finding the best engineers and designers around the world and paying them to focus on polishing their operating system. By comparison, Debian's (very impressive) 3500 or so developers, maintainers, and contributors, are almost exclusively volunteers and working at most part time on their chosen packages. If you want to see better free software, what I'd suggest to you and everyone else is this: Next time you want to buy a phone, pick something cheaper, and donate the difference to a developer of free software. If you're an iPhone user and you switch to a Fairphone 5, say, you can throw £600 at someone like Joey Hess, or just pick an organisation that makes good stuff and give it to them if you don't want to find a specific author. Let's remind ourselves that if 1000 people did this, it'd be £600k of funding to improve free software. Personally, I'd recommend a donation to the NLNet foundation: https://nlnet.nl/ https://nlnet.nl/ (plug for nlnet, they're currently taking proposals and will fund successful ones: https://nlnet.nl/news/2023/20230801-call.html https://nlnet.nl/news/2023/20230801-call.html )
  - edhelas 3y ago
    NLNet is awesome ! :)
    - hkt 3y ago
      edhelas! Movim is awesome too <3
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    So can you install gnu/linux on someones desktop and he can just use it on his own without the terminal? What do they do, when the next update tells them that some pgp keys are invalid? Free software works for devs and geeks, yes and I happen to be one of them. But for common people? Usually not very good, as they don't know the terminal and don't know config files. I know, because I tried to spread linux. It is hard work.
    - orangeshark 3y ago
      Didn't have much of an issue when I installed Ubuntu on my dad's laptop with his limited computer experiences, didn't have many issues. Have you never encountered issues with Windows or MacOS? My experiences with Windows had many very frustrating experiences where I am sure won't be good either for common people.
    - faiD9Eet 3y ago
      May I recommend you try Debian and its package `unattended-upgrades`. Besides, I recommend servicing the device every so often. People create weird failure modes (putting too many files onto the device, clicking at random in menus). I also recommend setting up a backup. As a figure of speech: Nobody is expected to service a car on his own. You'll get professional help every so often.
      - hutzlibu 3y ago
        "May I recommend you try Debian and its package `unattended-upgrades`" I will try that. "As a figure of speech: Nobody is expected to service a car on his own. You'll get professional help every so often." And also windows computers can have serious problems, but usually they are easier to solve for beginners, compared to when I try fix someones linux computer, that has not been updated in a while ..
- geenat 3y ago
  The ego of anons who are "also good at making software", try to minimize Stallman, then step back into anonymity is hilarious. You're comparing yourselves to a guy who has changed the face of software and privacy, probably forever- his license is quoted to be one of the most important decisions in Linux by Torvalds himself. > Lots of open source and free software for tech people - everything closed down for ordinary people. It just wouldn't get made. Software would be worse without OSS because there would be no fire under Microsoft's ass
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    Maybe just look at some data, how often the GPL is used in new projects and how often MIT or alike. And how often projects gets reimplemented because people and organisations don't want to have to deal with copyleft. That was my point, not comparing my hacker skills with RMS which I do not recall having done with any word. I just said, I won't work together with people of your attitude. And I know I am not the only one, see above.
    - toyg 3y ago
      > how often the GPL is used in new projects and how often MIT or alike. That's strictly about businesses not willing to give back in the way the GPL forces you to. It's nothing to do with how RMS behaves.
      - hutzlibu 3y ago
        No, it also is about people wanting their software to be used by everyone, including buisness, without limitations. That can have selfish reasons like wanting money of buisness people, but can also have idealistic reasons. Not everyone is a fan of enforcing freedom, as that is a contradiction to some. Like I said, different opinions. Freedom etc. Not accepted by RMS and co I know. Which is why I will continue to stay away from you.
        cultureswitch 3y ago
        GPL software can be used and modified by businesses. There's absolutely nothing preventing that, except the business being more lawyers than brains.
- asrt 3y ago
  This guy made GCC and Emacs. GCC in particular has shaped how most software has been compiled for decades. His operating system, GNU, is the de-facto UNIX implementation and runs many critical systems around the world. Anyone who claims that the guy is unlikeable has never truly bothered to hear him speak and isntrad relies on what they've been told by malicious actors. Stallman doesn't attack other people or ideologies. If anything his biggest mistake was using Linux as a kernel for people decided to call the GNU operating system "Linux" and it eventually took most of the funding and development away from the OS and its ideology.
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    "If anything his biggest mistake was using Linux as a kernel for people decided to call the GNU operating system "Linux" and it eventually took most of the funding and development away from the OS and its ideology." Well, what other kernel could he have used instead? Hurd? And linus is writing code till today and activly leading the developement. What relevant contributions did RMS made, since gcc and emacs? So do you really think it is accurate saying "his" operating system is so much used today?
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      >What relevant contributions did RMS made, since gcc and emacs? Let's be fair here: stall man's last technical contributions were when he was Linus's current age. Some people will code to their deathbed but I don't think that is a requirement to properly champion tech. He's more than paid his dues there. Tech is relatively young and Stallman is one of the oldest living people left. Older than Gates, older than Jobs if he was still alive today. I see Linus less as a comparison so much as a torch Stallman's generation passed on.

by hkt 3y ago

hutzlibu 3y ago

Well, I am also good at making software, share the goal of a world where everyone fully controls their devices - yet I am appalled by many things around him. Mostly the "superior" ethical stance. You do things this (my) way, then it is ethical and you love freedom or you are not ethical and don't want freedom. Sorry, but I just have some different opinions about some things, but I rather feel not like working together with people who consider me lower. So the result is not cooperation but lot's of fragmentation in the free software/open source world. I do not think that helped the common cause. Otherwise we would not be where we are. Lots of open source and free software for tech people - everything closed down for ordinary people.

hkt 3y ago
Yet there are enormous amounts of cooperation within free software. There are the various organisations like the GNOME foundation, the Free Software Foundation, Debian, and many more beside. Thousands of volunteers keep these things going to produce well integrated, usable software. Not to mention the common principles in most free software around interoperability and loose coupling. Apple and Microsoft (and the rest) have less to do on this, because they don't have to make their software nearly as generic. Microsoft famously fixed something in SimCity at the OS level. Google and Facebook don't have to worry about interoperability, which undoubtedly removes a lot of complexity for them. In some ways, free software has a greater burden to carry. The problem with usability in free software is not one of culture or cooperation, it is one of capital. The fact is, Apple and Microsoft have at this point invested hundreds of billions in finding the best engineers and designers around the world and paying them to focus on polishing their operating system. By comparison, Debian's (very impressive) 3500 or so developers, maintainers, and contributors, are almost exclusively volunteers and working at most part time on their chosen packages. If you want to see better free software, what I'd suggest to you and everyone else is this: Next time you want to buy a phone, pick something cheaper, and donate the difference to a developer of free software. If you're an iPhone user and you switch to a Fairphone 5, say, you can throw £600 at someone like Joey Hess, or just pick an organisation that makes good stuff and give it to them if you don't want to find a specific author. Let's remind ourselves that if 1000 people did this, it'd be £600k of funding to improve free software. Personally, I'd recommend a donation to the NLNet foundation: https://nlnet.nl/ https://nlnet.nl/ (plug for nlnet, they're currently taking proposals and will fund successful ones: https://nlnet.nl/news/2023/20230801-call.html https://nlnet.nl/news/2023/20230801-call.html )
- edhelas 3y ago
  NLNet is awesome ! :)
  - hkt 3y ago
    edhelas! Movim is awesome too <3
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  So can you install gnu/linux on someones desktop and he can just use it on his own without the terminal? What do they do, when the next update tells them that some pgp keys are invalid? Free software works for devs and geeks, yes and I happen to be one of them. But for common people? Usually not very good, as they don't know the terminal and don't know config files. I know, because I tried to spread linux. It is hard work.
  - orangeshark 3y ago
    Didn't have much of an issue when I installed Ubuntu on my dad's laptop with his limited computer experiences, didn't have many issues. Have you never encountered issues with Windows or MacOS? My experiences with Windows had many very frustrating experiences where I am sure won't be good either for common people.
  - faiD9Eet 3y ago
    May I recommend you try Debian and its package `unattended-upgrades`. Besides, I recommend servicing the device every so often. People create weird failure modes (putting too many files onto the device, clicking at random in menus). I also recommend setting up a backup. As a figure of speech: Nobody is expected to service a car on his own. You'll get professional help every so often.
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      "May I recommend you try Debian and its package `unattended-upgrades`" I will try that. "As a figure of speech: Nobody is expected to service a car on his own. You'll get professional help every so often." And also windows computers can have serious problems, but usually they are easier to solve for beginners, compared to when I try fix someones linux computer, that has not been updated in a while ..
geenat 3y ago
The ego of anons who are "also good at making software", try to minimize Stallman, then step back into anonymity is hilarious. You're comparing yourselves to a guy who has changed the face of software and privacy, probably forever- his license is quoted to be one of the most important decisions in Linux by Torvalds himself. > Lots of open source and free software for tech people - everything closed down for ordinary people. It just wouldn't get made. Software would be worse without OSS because there would be no fire under Microsoft's ass
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  Maybe just look at some data, how often the GPL is used in new projects and how often MIT or alike. And how often projects gets reimplemented because people and organisations don't want to have to deal with copyleft. That was my point, not comparing my hacker skills with RMS which I do not recall having done with any word. I just said, I won't work together with people of your attitude. And I know I am not the only one, see above.
  - toyg 3y ago
    > how often the GPL is used in new projects and how often MIT or alike. That's strictly about businesses not willing to give back in the way the GPL forces you to. It's nothing to do with how RMS behaves.
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      No, it also is about people wanting their software to be used by everyone, including buisness, without limitations. That can have selfish reasons like wanting money of buisness people, but can also have idealistic reasons. Not everyone is a fan of enforcing freedom, as that is a contradiction to some. Like I said, different opinions. Freedom etc. Not accepted by RMS and co I know. Which is why I will continue to stay away from you.
      - cultureswitch 3y ago
        GPL software can be used and modified by businesses. There's absolutely nothing preventing that, except the business being more lawyers than brains.
asrt 3y ago
This guy made GCC and Emacs. GCC in particular has shaped how most software has been compiled for decades. His operating system, GNU, is the de-facto UNIX implementation and runs many critical systems around the world. Anyone who claims that the guy is unlikeable has never truly bothered to hear him speak and isntrad relies on what they've been told by malicious actors. Stallman doesn't attack other people or ideologies. If anything his biggest mistake was using Linux as a kernel for people decided to call the GNU operating system "Linux" and it eventually took most of the funding and development away from the OS and its ideology.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  "If anything his biggest mistake was using Linux as a kernel for people decided to call the GNU operating system "Linux" and it eventually took most of the funding and development away from the OS and its ideology." Well, what other kernel could he have used instead? Hurd? And linus is writing code till today and activly leading the developement. What relevant contributions did RMS made, since gcc and emacs? So do you really think it is accurate saying "his" operating system is so much used today?
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    >What relevant contributions did RMS made, since gcc and emacs? Let's be fair here: stall man's last technical contributions were when he was Linus's current age. Some people will code to their deathbed but I don't think that is a requirement to properly champion tech. He's more than paid his dues there. Tech is relatively young and Stallman is one of the oldest living people left. Older than Gates, older than Jobs if he was still alive today. I see Linus less as a comparison so much as a torch Stallman's generation passed on.