7 ms·

"We need absolutists like him who go to extremes and are known widely." But what is he known for, outside tech circles, if he is known at all? When you want t

"We need absolutists like him who go to extremes and are known widely." But what is he known for, outside tech circles, if he is known at all? When you want to deliver a message, it matters a lot, how you deliver it.

hkt 3y ago
There are phases in which change happens: Stallman's preaching to people who can actually make free software (eg, people you might find on HN) has accomplished a huge amount of capacity building. He's tremendously good at encouraging it, and always has been. That provides the raw material for people who are perhaps a little more adoption focused (and apt) which is work that can't happen if there's no capacity.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  Well, I am also good at making software, share the goal of a world where everyone fully controls their devices - yet I am appalled by many things around him. Mostly the "superior" ethical stance. You do things this (my) way, then it is ethical and you love freedom or you are not ethical and don't want freedom. Sorry, but I just have some different opinions about some things, but I rather feel not like working together with people who consider me lower. So the result is not cooperation but lot's of fragmentation in the free software/open source world. I do not think that helped the common cause. Otherwise we would not be where we are. Lots of open source and free software for tech people - everything closed down for ordinary people.
  - hkt 3y ago
    Yet there are enormous amounts of cooperation within free software. There are the various organisations like the GNOME foundation, the Free Software Foundation, Debian, and many more beside. Thousands of volunteers keep these things going to produce well integrated, usable software. Not to mention the common principles in most free software around interoperability and loose coupling. Apple and Microsoft (and the rest) have less to do on this, because they don't have to make their software nearly as generic. Microsoft famously fixed something in SimCity at the OS level. Google and Facebook don't have to worry about interoperability, which undoubtedly removes a lot of complexity for them. In some ways, free software has a greater burden to carry. The problem with usability in free software is not one of culture or cooperation, it is one of capital. The fact is, Apple and Microsoft have at this point invested hundreds of billions in finding the best engineers and designers around the world and paying them to focus on polishing their operating system. By comparison, Debian's (very impressive) 3500 or so developers, maintainers, and contributors, are almost exclusively volunteers and working at most part time on their chosen packages. If you want to see better free software, what I'd suggest to you and everyone else is this: Next time you want to buy a phone, pick something cheaper, and donate the difference to a developer of free software. If you're an iPhone user and you switch to a Fairphone 5, say, you can throw £600 at someone like Joey Hess, or just pick an organisation that makes good stuff and give it to them if you don't want to find a specific author. Let's remind ourselves that if 1000 people did this, it'd be £600k of funding to improve free software. Personally, I'd recommend a donation to the NLNet foundation: https://nlnet.nl/ https://nlnet.nl/ (plug for nlnet, they're currently taking proposals and will fund successful ones: https://nlnet.nl/news/2023/20230801-call.html https://nlnet.nl/news/2023/20230801-call.html )
    - edhelas 3y ago
      NLNet is awesome ! :)
      - hkt 3y ago
        edhelas! Movim is awesome too <3
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      So can you install gnu/linux on someones desktop and he can just use it on his own without the terminal? What do they do, when the next update tells them that some pgp keys are invalid? Free software works for devs and geeks, yes and I happen to be one of them. But for common people? Usually not very good, as they don't know the terminal and don't know config files. I know, because I tried to spread linux. It is hard work.
      - orangeshark 3y ago
        Didn't have much of an issue when I installed Ubuntu on my dad's laptop with his limited computer experiences, didn't have many issues. Have you never encountered issues with Windows or MacOS? My experiences with Windows had many very frustrating experiences where I am sure won't be good either for common people.
      - faiD9Eet 3y ago
        May I recommend you try Debian and its package `unattended-upgrades`. Besides, I recommend servicing the device every so often. People create weird failure modes (putting too many files onto the device, clicking at random in menus). I also recommend setting up a backup. As a figure of speech: Nobody is expected to service a car on his own. You'll get professional help every so often.
        hutzlibu 3y ago
        "May I recommend you try Debian and its package `unattended-upgrades`" I will try that. "As a figure of speech: Nobody is expected to service a car on his own. You'll get professional help every so often." And also windows computers can have serious problems, but usually they are easier to solve for beginners, compared to when I try fix someones linux computer, that has not been updated in a while ..
  - geenat 3y ago
    The ego of anons who are "also good at making software", try to minimize Stallman, then step back into anonymity is hilarious. You're comparing yourselves to a guy who has changed the face of software and privacy, probably forever- his license is quoted to be one of the most important decisions in Linux by Torvalds himself. > Lots of open source and free software for tech people - everything closed down for ordinary people. It just wouldn't get made. Software would be worse without OSS because there would be no fire under Microsoft's ass
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      Maybe just look at some data, how often the GPL is used in new projects and how often MIT or alike. And how often projects gets reimplemented because people and organisations don't want to have to deal with copyleft. That was my point, not comparing my hacker skills with RMS which I do not recall having done with any word. I just said, I won't work together with people of your attitude. And I know I am not the only one, see above.
      - toyg 3y ago
        > how often the GPL is used in new projects and how often MIT or alike. That's strictly about businesses not willing to give back in the way the GPL forces you to. It's nothing to do with how RMS behaves.
        hutzlibu 3y ago
        No, it also is about people wanting their software to be used by everyone, including buisness, without limitations. That can have selfish reasons like wanting money of buisness people, but can also have idealistic reasons. Not everyone is a fan of enforcing freedom, as that is a contradiction to some. Like I said, different opinions. Freedom etc. Not accepted by RMS and co I know. Which is why I will continue to stay away from you.
        cultureswitch 3y ago
        GPL software can be used and modified by businesses. There's absolutely nothing preventing that, except the business being more lawyers than brains.
  - asrt 3y ago
    This guy made GCC and Emacs. GCC in particular has shaped how most software has been compiled for decades. His operating system, GNU, is the de-facto UNIX implementation and runs many critical systems around the world. Anyone who claims that the guy is unlikeable has never truly bothered to hear him speak and isntrad relies on what they've been told by malicious actors. Stallman doesn't attack other people or ideologies. If anything his biggest mistake was using Linux as a kernel for people decided to call the GNU operating system "Linux" and it eventually took most of the funding and development away from the OS and its ideology.
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      "If anything his biggest mistake was using Linux as a kernel for people decided to call the GNU operating system "Linux" and it eventually took most of the funding and development away from the OS and its ideology." Well, what other kernel could he have used instead? Hurd? And linus is writing code till today and activly leading the developement. What relevant contributions did RMS made, since gcc and emacs? So do you really think it is accurate saying "his" operating system is so much used today?
      - johnnyanmac 3y ago
        >What relevant contributions did RMS made, since gcc and emacs? Let's be fair here: stall man's last technical contributions were when he was Linus's current age. Some people will code to their deathbed but I don't think that is a requirement to properly champion tech. He's more than paid his dues there. Tech is relatively young and Stallman is one of the oldest living people left. Older than Gates, older than Jobs if he was still alive today. I see Linus less as a comparison so much as a torch Stallman's generation passed on.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
vasco 3y ago
I'd bet there will be a blockbuster movie about this guy within 10 years of him dying and it'll be in the pop culture, and maybe even stoke a temporary privacy / freedom focus for a while in common consciousness. Unfortunately the world doesn't know how to really appreciate people as much when they're alive for some personality types.
- sulam 3y ago
  I'll take the other side of that bet.
  - paulcole 3y ago
    Hammering the under on # of blockbuster Richard Stallman biopics is free money.
  - gcanyon 3y ago
    Agreed, but only because of the word "blockbuster," as there will be approximately zero of those within the 10 years (at least) the GP is proposing. I don't know for sure what the movie business will look like in 10 years, but one possibility is that everyone is able to create their own movies just by describing them, and a small number will say some variant of, "Give me a biopic of this Richard Stallman guy. Base it on his wikipedia entry and whatever else you know about him. Make it factual but an action neo-noir; you know what I like. Probably starring an amalgam of Bogart and Mitchum, the rest you can just make up."
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    I mean, there are multiple Snowden films. I guess it depends on if you need it to be Oppenheimer levels of budget to be "blockbuster" or not.
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      I would think waaaay more people have heard of Snowden than of RMS. If a movie about RMS will get made, than in the shape of a crowdfunded community project.
bawolff 3y ago
Does it matter? His message isn't for non-programmers. What is plato known for among people who don't give a shit about philosophy?
- sokoloff 3y ago
  Being so bad at dating that "never getting laid" is named after him?
- astrod 3y ago
  Maybe not the best example there, known or not - Plato's influence on us today is pretty heavy. There are even strong theories connecting early Christianity directly to Plato.
  - bawolff 3y ago
    Sure, and arguably RMS has had a pretty significant indirect impact on the lives of people who don't care about technology but still use free software in their day to day lives (it is everywhere). But those people don't really think about his message anymore than the average person contemplates the impact of neoplatonists on their present cultural context. [Before anyone gets offended, this is just a metaphor. Obviously plato had a much more significant impact on the world than RMS did]
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  "Does it matter? His message isn't for non-programmers." I see. Well then, carry on. But maybe then do not wonder when the rest of the world does not care about software freedom and also don't donate or support it in any way. Oh and Plato is well known as a philosopher, but yes, most people do not know that he proposed a very totalitarian state and is rather known for platonic love.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    >But maybe then do not wonder when the rest of the world does not care about software freedom and also don't donate or support it in any way. 30+% of my country can't even be damned to vote for their next president. Getting the layman to care is really hard, which is why advertising is a trillion dollar business. Perfect enemy of good and all that. Lawyers for 99% of their cases don't rely on public sentiment to get their argument through. At least not active public sentiment.
adingus 3y ago
Even as someone who has been a dev for 5 years I only know him as that gross guy who likes free software. Note that 'gross guy' is the main point here. He has failed to communicate any nuance to his message. Another person might have 80% the same opinion as him but be able to reach 200% of the people as him by way of not having such a bad reputation. If the free software 'movement' wants to move anyone they need to get out of their own way.
- tekla 3y ago
  Always good to know that the modern generation of devs are ok with discounting someones ideas because they are "gross". These "gross" people are the ones who made overpaid dev positions possible.
  - Workaccount2 3y ago
    It's crazy to think how back in the day, software devs were basically hard science engineers, needing to be proficient in hardware and the nitty gritty of CPU architecture to be effective programmers. All so they could be paid $60-80k/yr in today's dollars for 50-60 hour work weeks. Whereas nowadays you can do a few weeks of a javascript crash course and land a $100k job organizing text windows on a webpage for a few hours a week from your bedroom.
    - eecc 3y ago
      Well, that’s because demand for sales-y engage-y web pages is furious while demand for exquisitely refined self-balancing distributed power grids (for example) is at the “call me back when the tech has become a 0.02 commodity” level
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      As a devil's advocate: while you had to know the nitty gritty it was legitimately possible to have the entire machine's architecture in your head. Maybe a few heads shared at worst. Microsoft' humble beginnings started with a dozen people who would make what most people type on daily. No one person knows the entire modern x86 architecture. And ofc those who know a lions share are paid top dollar. Maybe still underpaid for the value they bring to the entire world, but very comfortable. Don't have much to say about the web dev stuff. Just note that CoL is still kinda crazy in the places with most demand. I'm not gonna say "100k is so hard to live on" like some spoiled CS students but it does cut a lot more into your spending power than you'd expect.
lr4444lr 3y ago
He doesn't have to be. Tech luminaries who can understand compromise will figure out what will practically work after listening to him rant. The world still needs raving mad prophets like him to help us understand where the poles are.
hedora 3y ago
I'd say he's known for Linux and the building the base of TiVo, then Android, Chromebook, and MacOS (all of those impressions are wrong, but bear with me). Most people don't know what the kernel is, but they do see user space, and that was largely GPLed for a while. I think IBM ran some super bowl ads about how amazing Linux and open source were, about ten years ago. Also, stuff like raspberry pi and ssh exploits (yes, BSD, I know) also show up in pop culture. The Matrix and Mr Robot come to mind. During the end of the dot com boom, I think people were largely aware that Apache + Linux were what things ran on.
- hota_mazi 3y ago
  > I'd say he's known for Linux Er... what? He's known for forcing the name Gnu to be appended to Linux because of some wildly exaggerated claims of ownership. We're talking about rms, not Linus.

hkt 3y ago

There are phases in which change happens: Stallman's preaching to people who can actually make free software (eg, people you might find on HN) has accomplished a huge amount of capacity building. He's tremendously good at encouraging it, and always has been. That provides the raw material for people who are perhaps a little more adoption focused (and apt) which is work that can't happen if there's no capacity.

hutzlibu 3y ago
Well, I am also good at making software, share the goal of a world where everyone fully controls their devices - yet I am appalled by many things around him. Mostly the "superior" ethical stance. You do things this (my) way, then it is ethical and you love freedom or you are not ethical and don't want freedom. Sorry, but I just have some different opinions about some things, but I rather feel not like working together with people who consider me lower. So the result is not cooperation but lot's of fragmentation in the free software/open source world. I do not think that helped the common cause. Otherwise we would not be where we are. Lots of open source and free software for tech people - everything closed down for ordinary people.
- hkt 3y ago
  Yet there are enormous amounts of cooperation within free software. There are the various organisations like the GNOME foundation, the Free Software Foundation, Debian, and many more beside. Thousands of volunteers keep these things going to produce well integrated, usable software. Not to mention the common principles in most free software around interoperability and loose coupling. Apple and Microsoft (and the rest) have less to do on this, because they don't have to make their software nearly as generic. Microsoft famously fixed something in SimCity at the OS level. Google and Facebook don't have to worry about interoperability, which undoubtedly removes a lot of complexity for them. In some ways, free software has a greater burden to carry. The problem with usability in free software is not one of culture or cooperation, it is one of capital. The fact is, Apple and Microsoft have at this point invested hundreds of billions in finding the best engineers and designers around the world and paying them to focus on polishing their operating system. By comparison, Debian's (very impressive) 3500 or so developers, maintainers, and contributors, are almost exclusively volunteers and working at most part time on their chosen packages. If you want to see better free software, what I'd suggest to you and everyone else is this: Next time you want to buy a phone, pick something cheaper, and donate the difference to a developer of free software. If you're an iPhone user and you switch to a Fairphone 5, say, you can throw £600 at someone like Joey Hess, or just pick an organisation that makes good stuff and give it to them if you don't want to find a specific author. Let's remind ourselves that if 1000 people did this, it'd be £600k of funding to improve free software. Personally, I'd recommend a donation to the NLNet foundation: https://nlnet.nl/ https://nlnet.nl/ (plug for nlnet, they're currently taking proposals and will fund successful ones: https://nlnet.nl/news/2023/20230801-call.html https://nlnet.nl/news/2023/20230801-call.html )
  - edhelas 3y ago
    NLNet is awesome ! :)
    - hkt 3y ago
      edhelas! Movim is awesome too <3
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    So can you install gnu/linux on someones desktop and he can just use it on his own without the terminal? What do they do, when the next update tells them that some pgp keys are invalid? Free software works for devs and geeks, yes and I happen to be one of them. But for common people? Usually not very good, as they don't know the terminal and don't know config files. I know, because I tried to spread linux. It is hard work.
    - orangeshark 3y ago
      Didn't have much of an issue when I installed Ubuntu on my dad's laptop with his limited computer experiences, didn't have many issues. Have you never encountered issues with Windows or MacOS? My experiences with Windows had many very frustrating experiences where I am sure won't be good either for common people.
    - faiD9Eet 3y ago
      May I recommend you try Debian and its package `unattended-upgrades`. Besides, I recommend servicing the device every so often. People create weird failure modes (putting too many files onto the device, clicking at random in menus). I also recommend setting up a backup. As a figure of speech: Nobody is expected to service a car on his own. You'll get professional help every so often.
      - hutzlibu 3y ago
        "May I recommend you try Debian and its package `unattended-upgrades`" I will try that. "As a figure of speech: Nobody is expected to service a car on his own. You'll get professional help every so often." And also windows computers can have serious problems, but usually they are easier to solve for beginners, compared to when I try fix someones linux computer, that has not been updated in a while ..
- geenat 3y ago
  The ego of anons who are "also good at making software", try to minimize Stallman, then step back into anonymity is hilarious. You're comparing yourselves to a guy who has changed the face of software and privacy, probably forever- his license is quoted to be one of the most important decisions in Linux by Torvalds himself. > Lots of open source and free software for tech people - everything closed down for ordinary people. It just wouldn't get made. Software would be worse without OSS because there would be no fire under Microsoft's ass
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    Maybe just look at some data, how often the GPL is used in new projects and how often MIT or alike. And how often projects gets reimplemented because people and organisations don't want to have to deal with copyleft. That was my point, not comparing my hacker skills with RMS which I do not recall having done with any word. I just said, I won't work together with people of your attitude. And I know I am not the only one, see above.
    - toyg 3y ago
      > how often the GPL is used in new projects and how often MIT or alike. That's strictly about businesses not willing to give back in the way the GPL forces you to. It's nothing to do with how RMS behaves.
      - hutzlibu 3y ago
        No, it also is about people wanting their software to be used by everyone, including buisness, without limitations. That can have selfish reasons like wanting money of buisness people, but can also have idealistic reasons. Not everyone is a fan of enforcing freedom, as that is a contradiction to some. Like I said, different opinions. Freedom etc. Not accepted by RMS and co I know. Which is why I will continue to stay away from you.
        cultureswitch 3y ago
        GPL software can be used and modified by businesses. There's absolutely nothing preventing that, except the business being more lawyers than brains.
- asrt 3y ago
  This guy made GCC and Emacs. GCC in particular has shaped how most software has been compiled for decades. His operating system, GNU, is the de-facto UNIX implementation and runs many critical systems around the world. Anyone who claims that the guy is unlikeable has never truly bothered to hear him speak and isntrad relies on what they've been told by malicious actors. Stallman doesn't attack other people or ideologies. If anything his biggest mistake was using Linux as a kernel for people decided to call the GNU operating system "Linux" and it eventually took most of the funding and development away from the OS and its ideology.
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    "If anything his biggest mistake was using Linux as a kernel for people decided to call the GNU operating system "Linux" and it eventually took most of the funding and development away from the OS and its ideology." Well, what other kernel could he have used instead? Hurd? And linus is writing code till today and activly leading the developement. What relevant contributions did RMS made, since gcc and emacs? So do you really think it is accurate saying "his" operating system is so much used today?
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      >What relevant contributions did RMS made, since gcc and emacs? Let's be fair here: stall man's last technical contributions were when he was Linus's current age. Some people will code to their deathbed but I don't think that is a requirement to properly champion tech. He's more than paid his dues there. Tech is relatively young and Stallman is one of the oldest living people left. Older than Gates, older than Jobs if he was still alive today. I see Linus less as a comparison so much as a torch Stallman's generation passed on.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

vasco 3y ago

I'd bet there will be a blockbuster movie about this guy within 10 years of him dying and it'll be in the pop culture, and maybe even stoke a temporary privacy / freedom focus for a while in common consciousness. Unfortunately the world doesn't know how to really appreciate people as much when they're alive for some personality types.

sulam 3y ago
I'll take the other side of that bet.
- paulcole 3y ago
  Hammering the under on # of blockbuster Richard Stallman biopics is free money.
- gcanyon 3y ago
  Agreed, but only because of the word "blockbuster," as there will be approximately zero of those within the 10 years (at least) the GP is proposing. I don't know for sure what the movie business will look like in 10 years, but one possibility is that everyone is able to create their own movies just by describing them, and a small number will say some variant of, "Give me a biopic of this Richard Stallman guy. Base it on his wikipedia entry and whatever else you know about him. Make it factual but an action neo-noir; you know what I like. Probably starring an amalgam of Bogart and Mitchum, the rest you can just make up."
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  I mean, there are multiple Snowden films. I guess it depends on if you need it to be Oppenheimer levels of budget to be "blockbuster" or not.
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    I would think waaaay more people have heard of Snowden than of RMS. If a movie about RMS will get made, than in the shape of a crowdfunded community project.

bawolff 3y ago

Does it matter? His message isn't for non-programmers. What is plato known for among people who don't give a shit about philosophy?

sokoloff 3y ago
Being so bad at dating that "never getting laid" is named after him?
astrod 3y ago
Maybe not the best example there, known or not - Plato's influence on us today is pretty heavy. There are even strong theories connecting early Christianity directly to Plato.
- bawolff 3y ago
  Sure, and arguably RMS has had a pretty significant indirect impact on the lives of people who don't care about technology but still use free software in their day to day lives (it is everywhere). But those people don't really think about his message anymore than the average person contemplates the impact of neoplatonists on their present cultural context. [Before anyone gets offended, this is just a metaphor. Obviously plato had a much more significant impact on the world than RMS did]
hutzlibu 3y ago
"Does it matter? His message isn't for non-programmers." I see. Well then, carry on. But maybe then do not wonder when the rest of the world does not care about software freedom and also don't donate or support it in any way. Oh and Plato is well known as a philosopher, but yes, most people do not know that he proposed a very totalitarian state and is rather known for platonic love.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  >But maybe then do not wonder when the rest of the world does not care about software freedom and also don't donate or support it in any way. 30+% of my country can't even be damned to vote for their next president. Getting the layman to care is really hard, which is why advertising is a trillion dollar business. Perfect enemy of good and all that. Lawyers for 99% of their cases don't rely on public sentiment to get their argument through. At least not active public sentiment.

adingus 3y ago

Even as someone who has been a dev for 5 years I only know him as that gross guy who likes free software. Note that 'gross guy' is the main point here. He has failed to communicate any nuance to his message. Another person might have 80% the same opinion as him but be able to reach 200% of the people as him by way of not having such a bad reputation. If the free software 'movement' wants to move anyone they need to get out of their own way.

tekla 3y ago
Always good to know that the modern generation of devs are ok with discounting someones ideas because they are "gross". These "gross" people are the ones who made overpaid dev positions possible.
- Workaccount2 3y ago
  It's crazy to think how back in the day, software devs were basically hard science engineers, needing to be proficient in hardware and the nitty gritty of CPU architecture to be effective programmers. All so they could be paid $60-80k/yr in today's dollars for 50-60 hour work weeks. Whereas nowadays you can do a few weeks of a javascript crash course and land a $100k job organizing text windows on a webpage for a few hours a week from your bedroom.
  - eecc 3y ago
    Well, that’s because demand for sales-y engage-y web pages is furious while demand for exquisitely refined self-balancing distributed power grids (for example) is at the “call me back when the tech has become a 0.02 commodity” level
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    As a devil's advocate: while you had to know the nitty gritty it was legitimately possible to have the entire machine's architecture in your head. Maybe a few heads shared at worst. Microsoft' humble beginnings started with a dozen people who would make what most people type on daily. No one person knows the entire modern x86 architecture. And ofc those who know a lions share are paid top dollar. Maybe still underpaid for the value they bring to the entire world, but very comfortable. Don't have much to say about the web dev stuff. Just note that CoL is still kinda crazy in the places with most demand. I'm not gonna say "100k is so hard to live on" like some spoiled CS students but it does cut a lot more into your spending power than you'd expect.

lr4444lr 3y ago

He doesn't have to be. Tech luminaries who can understand compromise will figure out what will practically work after listening to him rant. The world still needs raving mad prophets like him to help us understand where the poles are.

hedora 3y ago

I'd say he's known for Linux and the building the base of TiVo, then Android, Chromebook, and MacOS (all of those impressions are wrong, but bear with me). Most people don't know what the kernel is, but they do see user space, and that was largely GPLed for a while. I think IBM ran some super bowl ads about how amazing Linux and open source were, about ten years ago. Also, stuff like raspberry pi and ssh exploits (yes, BSD, I know) also show up in pop culture. The Matrix and Mr Robot come to mind. During the end of the dot com boom, I think people were largely aware that Apache + Linux were what things ran on.

hota_mazi 3y ago
> I'd say he's known for Linux Er... what? He's known for forcing the name Gnu to be appended to Linux because of some wildly exaggerated claims of ownership. We're talking about rms, not Linus.