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Guilt for the faults of one's ancestors is especially strange in this case, since it only ever applies to one side (the European side), and nary a whisper of th

Guilt for the faults of one's ancestors is especially strange in this case, since it only ever applies to one side (the European side), and nary a whisper of the past of slavery, cannibalism, and genocide are mentioned because those are things belong to the "oppressed" people (the Maori). That's only part of the picture, though. Some bad things happened, but as a consequence, some arguably much worse outcomes were avoided. The sole reason that slavery and cannibalism do not exist in New Zealand today is precisely because it was colonized. The British outlawed those things (and brought Christianity, which also had an impact). The "displacement" wasn't extensive, either. The link says the "population may have reached 100,000" prior to colonization, in a nation of 100,000 square miles. Much of it, particularly in the south, was never occupied or controlled, the terrain was neither hospitable nor accessible until colonization brought roads. Now that area is highly productive and exports from there pay for hospitals and schools. It's also basically unfathomable that if the British hadn't colonized NZ, it would have been totally left to its own devices to develop. Another, less friendly colonizer may have come. What if it were, say, Belgium? It gets a little tiresome to hear one side of the argument for decades on end, while people fear ostracism for even thinking of mentioning the other half of history.

peterashford 3y ago
I don't think this is really a "both sides" kinda thing. It seems like you're minimising some serious issues in a very glib way.
- PostOnce 3y ago
  That's exactly the problem, there's no room left for frank discussion or a neutral inquiry into how romanticizing the past can damage all our futures, Maori and Pakeha alike. Yes there were tragedies, and they went on for a very long time. Land sold by people who did not own it, children forbidden to speak their own language, fisheries robbed, an infinite list of terrible things. However, a great number of other terrible things ended. Why can we only discuss half of that? Should it not infuriate one and all for some conman to proclaim to the media a "Maori worldview". Nobody ever comes on TV and asserts that all Pakeha share a worldview or that they should. Politicians and pundits put words in the mouths of others and lie and romanticize a past that never existed while literacy declines and moldy homes grow more expensive. Rawiri Waititi (of The Maori Party, which is shamefully named considering most Maori vote Labour) was on twitter the day a Maori man died talking about how that man was wrong for not subscribing to Waititi's particular imagination of what a "Maori foreign policy" is and engaging in Russian apologia. (see https://www.facebook.com/RawiriWaititiMP/posts/i-hope-this-is-not-true-because-heads-should-roll-praying-that-kane-te-tai-is-al/664304465500256/ https://www.facebook.com/RawiriWaititiMP/posts/i-hope-this-i... ) We preach the tikanga and the kaupapa and pretend that all Maori must necessarily believe those are the right way, a historical absolute that has gone unchanged since time immemorial and was corrupted only when the British arrived. Yet we abandoned slavery, cannibalism, feudal hierarchy, and reserving a large portion of education for men only. We're the first nation to give women the right to vote, and yet it's questioned whether it's right for the prime minister to be allowed to speak on the marae simply because she's a woman, but hey, the tikanga, the evil Europeans, if only we'd stuck with slavery everything would all be better... We're losing the unity we used to have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Manners_Street https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Manners_Street and it seems like we're slow-motion diving headlong into an unequal system of laws and government in the name of atoning for the sins of those long dead, while not mentioning all the halted evil that democracy and the rule of law stopped. Our dishonesty will probably damn us to iniquity. I'll be fine, but I worry about the rest of the people here and the opportunities they'll lose by forsaking modernity.
  - peterashford 3y ago
    I dont think this is about romanticising the past. Maori were colonised, a violent process that nearly destroyed their culture, language and left them destitute. That's the fact of the matter. No happy clappy messaging about Maori culture is required to realise that Maori suffered immensely through colonisation, pakeha gained immensely through colonisation and we continue to do so. To suggest this is some swings and roundabouts, 50/50 kinda thing is frankly offensive.

peterashford 3y ago

I don't think this is really a "both sides" kinda thing. It seems like you're minimising some serious issues in a very glib way.

PostOnce 3y ago
That's exactly the problem, there's no room left for frank discussion or a neutral inquiry into how romanticizing the past can damage all our futures, Maori and Pakeha alike. Yes there were tragedies, and they went on for a very long time. Land sold by people who did not own it, children forbidden to speak their own language, fisheries robbed, an infinite list of terrible things. However, a great number of other terrible things ended. Why can we only discuss half of that? Should it not infuriate one and all for some conman to proclaim to the media a "Maori worldview". Nobody ever comes on TV and asserts that all Pakeha share a worldview or that they should. Politicians and pundits put words in the mouths of others and lie and romanticize a past that never existed while literacy declines and moldy homes grow more expensive. Rawiri Waititi (of The Maori Party, which is shamefully named considering most Maori vote Labour) was on twitter the day a Maori man died talking about how that man was wrong for not subscribing to Waititi's particular imagination of what a "Maori foreign policy" is and engaging in Russian apologia. (see https://www.facebook.com/RawiriWaititiMP/posts/i-hope-this-is-not-true-because-heads-should-roll-praying-that-kane-te-tai-is-al/664304465500256/ https://www.facebook.com/RawiriWaititiMP/posts/i-hope-this-i... ) We preach the tikanga and the kaupapa and pretend that all Maori must necessarily believe those are the right way, a historical absolute that has gone unchanged since time immemorial and was corrupted only when the British arrived. Yet we abandoned slavery, cannibalism, feudal hierarchy, and reserving a large portion of education for men only. We're the first nation to give women the right to vote, and yet it's questioned whether it's right for the prime minister to be allowed to speak on the marae simply because she's a woman, but hey, the tikanga, the evil Europeans, if only we'd stuck with slavery everything would all be better... We're losing the unity we used to have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Manners_Street https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Manners_Street and it seems like we're slow-motion diving headlong into an unequal system of laws and government in the name of atoning for the sins of those long dead, while not mentioning all the halted evil that democracy and the rule of law stopped. Our dishonesty will probably damn us to iniquity. I'll be fine, but I worry about the rest of the people here and the opportunities they'll lose by forsaking modernity.
- peterashford 3y ago
  I dont think this is about romanticising the past. Maori were colonised, a violent process that nearly destroyed their culture, language and left them destitute. That's the fact of the matter. No happy clappy messaging about Maori culture is required to realise that Maori suffered immensely through colonisation, pakeha gained immensely through colonisation and we continue to do so. To suggest this is some swings and roundabouts, 50/50 kinda thing is frankly offensive.