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The article is about the distinction between playful teasing and aggressive teasing. What cats do is aggressive teasing, not playful teasing. The paper talks ab

The article is about the distinction between playful teasing and aggressive teasing. What cats do is aggressive teasing, not playful teasing. The paper talks about how aggressive teasing is well known outside of humans. The question was whether playful teasing exists outside of humans, since it requires a more fully developed concept of the other's mind. They give the example of offer & withdrawal in an affiliative context. It could be done in an aggressive manner: imagine a bully on the playground offering a ball and then taking it away. But it can also be done in a playful way: imagine a parent playing keep away with a toddler with both sides laughing the whole time. That you characterise feline teasing as about staying alert and not about building bonds further reinforces that cats aren't doing the same kind of playful teasing being described in the paper.

RugnirViking 3y ago
Hmm, I think this is interesting. I went and looked at the paper and the distinction here seems very interesting. I always thought of agressive teasing type behavior as a way to probe the percieved hierarchy. Like someone only a bit above you in the hierarchy would get annoyed by it, a stranger would get hostile, someone far above would ignore you, a peer would play back etc. I do think it builds bonds though. If you watch two dogs playfighting you can see them pause occasionally, looking at each other, gauging the other's reaction. They can often go from agressive play to laying in a heap together very quickly.
Jensson 3y ago
Dogs do a lot of clearly playful teasing, they signal that it is playful by wagging their tail. You see it all the time when dogs meet new dogs.
- circuit10 3y ago
  It seems like there’s a whole thing they go through: go and sniff the other dog to make their presence known, then crouch down and wag their tail, then start running away to provoke the other dog to chase them and see if the other dog wants to and start playing if so At least that’s what I often see happen, and aggression looks quite different
  - ordu 3y ago
    I'm not sure that this is a teasing by definition of the article. Running away dog does nothing surprising for another dog. They just follow a protocol.
    - 4death4 3y ago
      My dog definitely teases me. She’ll grab one of my socks and sit in front of me with the sock laying on the floor. As soon as I go to pick it up, she’ll snatch it and run away.
      - johnchristopher 3y ago
        But is it playful or aggressive ? I often hear the behavior you describe is about the dog asserting dominance, which should be a no-no.
        4death4 3y ago
        Dominance theory in dogs is largely discredited.
        johnchristopher 3y ago
        Ooh, thanks ! I am learning something new https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/dog-advice/training/techniques/dominance-theory https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/dog-advice/training/techniques/...
      - ordu 3y ago
        I believe there are two possible exolanations for that behavior, and I feel that they are different. Though I have no PhD in the field. First it can be just a learned behavior. For example it could go like this. Your dog at some point in the past grabbed your sock, you tried to get the sock from her, and she saw the interaction as a fun game. Later repetitions reinforced this behaviour. The other explanation is a teasing. It could be for example if your dog was trained to bring socks to you and give them to you, but instead she didn't let go of socks sometimes, when she is in a playful mood. But not too often to not lose an element of surprise, to not get a reaction "oh no, not that again, just give me the sock". If this behaviour becomes routine it is no longer teasing (by definition of the article) because there is no surprise. I believe that the second explanation needs from a dog to get the general idea of rules, rituals, protocols, and an ability to exploit her understanding to create a moment of surprise in you. The first explanation doesn't need anything more exciting than conditioning, B.F.Skinner would have explained that behaviour without stopping to think for a second. And I believe dogs are explained mostly with a first kind of explanation. They learn through conditioning. When they invent some new behaviour it can start with a transfer (a play with a stick was transformed to a play with a sock in absence of a suitable stick) and then developed into a new behaviour through reinforcement. You can teach your dog to tease, but you can write a teasing computer program also, it doesn't mean than the dog or the program could get the idea of teasing. But all this written is written by me, having very basic psychology education. I can be completely misguided.
- josefresco 3y ago
  I "dogsit" a lot of dogs and "teasing" is my primary technique to get a new/shy dog to play. If I just show them a toy they usually ignore it. But if start to give it to them, and then take it away their interest starts to build. Repeat a few times and suddenly the formally shy dog is playing!
- jerf 3y ago
  I have had a number of dogs relatively high on the dog intelligence scale, with an Australian Shepherd right now, and another thing they do that shows at least a minimal theory of mind for teasing-like purposes is enticement. josefresco in a sibling comment mentions teasing dogs with toys to get them interested; my dog does the same thing too. The theory of mind is not so developed that she's aware that I, as a human being, am nowhere near as interested in her toy as I am, but it's definitely non-trivial cognitive work. (And I have to admit I've spiked her data set, since we generally choose to respond anyhow. Part of having a dog like an Australian Shepherd is that you're signing up to a moderately high-energy dog and we knew that going in, so we realize we have a responsibility to take the enticement anyhow.)
james-revisoai 3y ago
I don't think cats only do aggressive teasing (presumably, you are focusing on how they can treat other cats or rats/mice) Cats can be found playing with weaker animals like ducks or rabbits, and comfortable yet playful in the same nature as puppies with dogs and puppies. Lots of this teasing isn't of agressive nature, but it usually happens within the home/safe place for the animal
lynx23 3y ago
Sorry, but as someone who had a cat for 14 years, I have already read too many scientific claims about cats which were obviously totally bonkers that I am inclined to no longer care what scientists figure out about cats.
- c420 3y ago
  That suspiciously sounds exactly like something a cat would say...
  - fsckboy 3y ago
    I think we need to do a wellness check on the owner
mettamage 3y ago
Rough and tumble play can still be playful. Playfulness is a state of mind, not a mode of soft play

RugnirViking 3y ago

Hmm, I think this is interesting. I went and looked at the paper and the distinction here seems very interesting. I always thought of agressive teasing type behavior as a way to probe the percieved hierarchy. Like someone only a bit above you in the hierarchy would get annoyed by it, a stranger would get hostile, someone far above would ignore you, a peer would play back etc. I do think it builds bonds though. If you watch two dogs playfighting you can see them pause occasionally, looking at each other, gauging the other's reaction. They can often go from agressive play to laying in a heap together very quickly.

Jensson 3y ago

Dogs do a lot of clearly playful teasing, they signal that it is playful by wagging their tail. You see it all the time when dogs meet new dogs.

circuit10 3y ago
It seems like there’s a whole thing they go through: go and sniff the other dog to make their presence known, then crouch down and wag their tail, then start running away to provoke the other dog to chase them and see if the other dog wants to and start playing if so At least that’s what I often see happen, and aggression looks quite different
- ordu 3y ago
  I'm not sure that this is a teasing by definition of the article. Running away dog does nothing surprising for another dog. They just follow a protocol.
  - 4death4 3y ago
    My dog definitely teases me. She’ll grab one of my socks and sit in front of me with the sock laying on the floor. As soon as I go to pick it up, she’ll snatch it and run away.
    - johnchristopher 3y ago
      But is it playful or aggressive ? I often hear the behavior you describe is about the dog asserting dominance, which should be a no-no.
      - 4death4 3y ago
        Dominance theory in dogs is largely discredited.
        johnchristopher 3y ago
        Ooh, thanks ! I am learning something new https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/dog-advice/training/techniques/dominance-theory https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/dog-advice/training/techniques/...
    - ordu 3y ago
      I believe there are two possible exolanations for that behavior, and I feel that they are different. Though I have no PhD in the field. First it can be just a learned behavior. For example it could go like this. Your dog at some point in the past grabbed your sock, you tried to get the sock from her, and she saw the interaction as a fun game. Later repetitions reinforced this behaviour. The other explanation is a teasing. It could be for example if your dog was trained to bring socks to you and give them to you, but instead she didn't let go of socks sometimes, when she is in a playful mood. But not too often to not lose an element of surprise, to not get a reaction "oh no, not that again, just give me the sock". If this behaviour becomes routine it is no longer teasing (by definition of the article) because there is no surprise. I believe that the second explanation needs from a dog to get the general idea of rules, rituals, protocols, and an ability to exploit her understanding to create a moment of surprise in you. The first explanation doesn't need anything more exciting than conditioning, B.F.Skinner would have explained that behaviour without stopping to think for a second. And I believe dogs are explained mostly with a first kind of explanation. They learn through conditioning. When they invent some new behaviour it can start with a transfer (a play with a stick was transformed to a play with a sock in absence of a suitable stick) and then developed into a new behaviour through reinforcement. You can teach your dog to tease, but you can write a teasing computer program also, it doesn't mean than the dog or the program could get the idea of teasing. But all this written is written by me, having very basic psychology education. I can be completely misguided.
josefresco 3y ago
I "dogsit" a lot of dogs and "teasing" is my primary technique to get a new/shy dog to play. If I just show them a toy they usually ignore it. But if start to give it to them, and then take it away their interest starts to build. Repeat a few times and suddenly the formally shy dog is playing!
jerf 3y ago
I have had a number of dogs relatively high on the dog intelligence scale, with an Australian Shepherd right now, and another thing they do that shows at least a minimal theory of mind for teasing-like purposes is enticement. josefresco in a sibling comment mentions teasing dogs with toys to get them interested; my dog does the same thing too. The theory of mind is not so developed that she's aware that I, as a human being, am nowhere near as interested in her toy as I am, but it's definitely non-trivial cognitive work. (And I have to admit I've spiked her data set, since we generally choose to respond anyhow. Part of having a dog like an Australian Shepherd is that you're signing up to a moderately high-energy dog and we knew that going in, so we realize we have a responsibility to take the enticement anyhow.)

james-revisoai 3y ago

I don't think cats only do aggressive teasing (presumably, you are focusing on how they can treat other cats or rats/mice) Cats can be found playing with weaker animals like ducks or rabbits, and comfortable yet playful in the same nature as puppies with dogs and puppies. Lots of this teasing isn't of agressive nature, but it usually happens within the home/safe place for the animal

lynx23 3y ago

Sorry, but as someone who had a cat for 14 years, I have already read too many scientific claims about cats which were obviously totally bonkers that I am inclined to no longer care what scientists figure out about cats.

c420 3y ago
That suspiciously sounds exactly like something a cat would say...
- fsckboy 3y ago
  I think we need to do a wellness check on the owner

mettamage 3y ago

Rough and tumble play can still be playful. Playfulness is a state of mind, not a mode of soft play