4 ms·

I think that prepper scenario is way more likely in a «I got mine, screw you» society like the US. All the countries you list have their issues, but their base

I think that prepper scenario is way more likely in a «I got mine, screw you» society like the US. All the countries you list have their issues, but their base level of societal egalitarism is orders of magnitude higher. I would not be surprised if the US is one of the few countries to end up like Mad Max if the world order should fully collapse due to climate change or other large scale events.

meheleventyone 3y ago
I also think that the fact the prepper vision is a large part of the cultural zeitgeist makes it somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  It's not a large part of it. There's a large vision of self-reliance, which is definitely not the whole country, or more than half the country, but that's not quite the same thing.
atdrummond 3y ago
I’ve lived in two dozen countries and the US is the most community oriented of them all outside major cities. US charitable giving alone suggests your view of the country as individualism run amok is likely not the whole story.
- TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
  The biggest share of US charitable giving goes to megachurches and other religious institutions who don't need it. A fair amount of the rest goes on political lobbying and influencing. The proportion that goes on direct no-strings plain simple humanitarian work is not all that huge. Most of the US population lives in cities. If the US wasn't "individualism run amok" it wouldn't have tent cities of homeless people, and its health industry wouldn't be bankrupting half a million people a year. (For example.)
  - HelloMcFly 3y ago
    You're correct that the largest share of giving goes to religiously-affiliated organizations, but the idea that the largest shares goes specifically to megachurches seems unlikely to me. If you've seen this reported somewhere I'm primed to change my mind. And I don't think it's totally fair to exclude religious donations as somehow "not valid", especially in the context of the critique that Americans don't value community with each other. Religious charities tend have less access to alternative funding sources, so rely on these donations more. Note: I'm very much not religious. > A fair amount of the rest goes on political lobbying and influencing. I get a little mixed-up on whether donations to non-tax-deductible non-profits "count" in the metrics (e.g., does my donation to the ACLU which has a lobbying arm count just as my donation to the ACLU Foundation which cannot be used that way?). Nevertheless, I think it's wrong-minded to discredit charitable giving to organizations that influence public policy given the multiplicative impact that policy has on the lives of people and communities. Some of the biggest impacts to the lives of people came out of organized efforts to influence policy. > If the US wasn't "individualism run amok" it wouldn't have tent cities of homeless people, and its health industry wouldn't be bankrupting half a million people a year. This feels like a pretty uncharitable and over-simplification of very complex issues that also get into inter-state dynamics. I also think there's an error made in treating US culture as some sort of homogenous cultural construct. More than many other countries, the US is constantly at war with itself culturally.
- tokai 3y ago
  Charity is peak individualism. In real communal places helping those in need is handled structured and organized, not just hinging on individual decisions.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    Charity used to structured and organized locally with Local churches, rotary clubs, and Samaritan organizations working to help less well off people in a town/neighborhood/city. All this has fallen to the wayside in the US as we have some weird form of individualism permiating on both sides of the political spectrum.
  - kortilla 3y ago
    Charity is not individualism. You’re making a false equivalence between collectivism and the government. There are huge collectivist communities in the US (generally centered around religions) that have very structured and organized ways of helping those in need. It is peak collectivism to accomplish this without requiring the monopoly on violence and the taxation that comes with it.
    - tokai 3y ago
      >You’re making a false equivalence between collectivism and the government And you are imagining things and claiming its what I am thinking.
      - kortilla 3y ago
        You literally said charity is individualism, with the implication being that anything voluntary (which is charity) is not collectivism. for it to not be voluntary, you need the monopoly on violence to force it.
localplume 3y ago
except prepping mostly isn't "I got mine, screw you" but "I need to protect myself and my family". even then, US society isn't even "I got mine, screw you". I don't understand where that even came from because its not even close to true. maybe europeans thinking they're somehow more collectivist even though I've found Americans to be far more friendly and collectivist than europeans.
- TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
  The US is the only major Western country where its citizens buy guns to protect themselves from other citizens with guns. I'm not really seeing how that counts as "friendly and collective", but I live in the EU so perhaps I just don't understand these things.
  - kortilla 3y ago
    Being prepared for a robbery has zero relationship with how you treat people in general.
bombcar 3y ago
We’ve had localized collapse due to hurricanes and other disasters in the USA and it didn’t go mad max and in fact people helped each other. There’s always a few bad apples but there’s always some counter pressure, too. The story of the deuce and half owner who drove into a hurricane comes to mind.

meheleventyone 3y ago

I also think that the fact the prepper vision is a large part of the cultural zeitgeist makes it somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
robertlagrant 3y ago
It's not a large part of it. There's a large vision of self-reliance, which is definitely not the whole country, or more than half the country, but that's not quite the same thing.

atdrummond 3y ago

I’ve lived in two dozen countries and the US is the most community oriented of them all outside major cities. US charitable giving alone suggests your view of the country as individualism run amok is likely not the whole story.

TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
The biggest share of US charitable giving goes to megachurches and other religious institutions who don't need it. A fair amount of the rest goes on political lobbying and influencing. The proportion that goes on direct no-strings plain simple humanitarian work is not all that huge. Most of the US population lives in cities. If the US wasn't "individualism run amok" it wouldn't have tent cities of homeless people, and its health industry wouldn't be bankrupting half a million people a year. (For example.)
- HelloMcFly 3y ago
  You're correct that the largest share of giving goes to religiously-affiliated organizations, but the idea that the largest shares goes specifically to megachurches seems unlikely to me. If you've seen this reported somewhere I'm primed to change my mind. And I don't think it's totally fair to exclude religious donations as somehow "not valid", especially in the context of the critique that Americans don't value community with each other. Religious charities tend have less access to alternative funding sources, so rely on these donations more. Note: I'm very much not religious. > A fair amount of the rest goes on political lobbying and influencing. I get a little mixed-up on whether donations to non-tax-deductible non-profits "count" in the metrics (e.g., does my donation to the ACLU which has a lobbying arm count just as my donation to the ACLU Foundation which cannot be used that way?). Nevertheless, I think it's wrong-minded to discredit charitable giving to organizations that influence public policy given the multiplicative impact that policy has on the lives of people and communities. Some of the biggest impacts to the lives of people came out of organized efforts to influence policy. > If the US wasn't "individualism run amok" it wouldn't have tent cities of homeless people, and its health industry wouldn't be bankrupting half a million people a year. This feels like a pretty uncharitable and over-simplification of very complex issues that also get into inter-state dynamics. I also think there's an error made in treating US culture as some sort of homogenous cultural construct. More than many other countries, the US is constantly at war with itself culturally.
tokai 3y ago
Charity is peak individualism. In real communal places helping those in need is handled structured and organized, not just hinging on individual decisions.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  Charity used to structured and organized locally with Local churches, rotary clubs, and Samaritan organizations working to help less well off people in a town/neighborhood/city. All this has fallen to the wayside in the US as we have some weird form of individualism permiating on both sides of the political spectrum.
- kortilla 3y ago
  Charity is not individualism. You’re making a false equivalence between collectivism and the government. There are huge collectivist communities in the US (generally centered around religions) that have very structured and organized ways of helping those in need. It is peak collectivism to accomplish this without requiring the monopoly on violence and the taxation that comes with it.
  - tokai 3y ago
    >You’re making a false equivalence between collectivism and the government And you are imagining things and claiming its what I am thinking.
    - kortilla 3y ago
      You literally said charity is individualism, with the implication being that anything voluntary (which is charity) is not collectivism. for it to not be voluntary, you need the monopoly on violence to force it.

localplume 3y ago

except prepping mostly isn't "I got mine, screw you" but "I need to protect myself and my family". even then, US society isn't even "I got mine, screw you". I don't understand where that even came from because its not even close to true. maybe europeans thinking they're somehow more collectivist even though I've found Americans to be far more friendly and collectivist than europeans.

TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
The US is the only major Western country where its citizens buy guns to protect themselves from other citizens with guns. I'm not really seeing how that counts as "friendly and collective", but I live in the EU so perhaps I just don't understand these things.
- kortilla 3y ago
  Being prepared for a robbery has zero relationship with how you treat people in general.

bombcar 3y ago

We’ve had localized collapse due to hurricanes and other disasters in the USA and it didn’t go mad max and in fact people helped each other. There’s always a few bad apples but there’s always some counter pressure, too. The story of the deuce and half owner who drove into a hurricane comes to mind.