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Although a definite minority in New Zealand, Maori culture has a huge influence at this point, particularly in all government operations. I've brought up this g

Although a definite minority in New Zealand, Maori culture has a huge influence at this point, particularly in all government operations. I've brought up this genocide of the Moriori by the Maori (and in 1835, not an ancient memory) to Kiwis, and what surprised me is that everyone appears to know about it - and nobody seems to care, despite what it implies for the history of the Maori culture.

defrost 3y ago
> despite what it implies for the history of the Maori culture. Which is?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- chongli 3y ago
  That they committed genocide. I think one of the worst aspects of (human nature? Dominant culture? I don't know why people think this way) is that people somehow cannot internalize the concept that a person can be both a victim and a perpetrator. You're either one or the other, never both. This issue is especially acute when it comes to colonialism. It's so bad that it robs people of agency. Victims of colonialism are practically infantilized by the very people who are supposed to be defending them.
  - defrost 3y ago
    > That they committed genocide. Not exactly new knowledge there though, is it? I first heard that in ~1980 from both Māori and Pakeha in both Australia and New Zealand. It's pretty much a core part of (say) Once Were Warriors that they historically had a fierce fighting culture. > people somehow cannot internalize the concept that a person can be both a victim and a perpetrator. Depends on the person really, though, doesn't it. Many people can walk and chew gum while thinking compex thoughts about others in the world. Other people seem to think that they alone can do so while projecting an inability to do so on others. > Victims of colonialism are practically infantilized by the very people who are supposed to be defending them. Not everybody wanders about wearing a halo of white savior complex though, do they? One critique of a certain subclass of "the right" is that they like to homogenous "the left" and reduce them all down to some dopey cartoon characterization .. which is hardly higher level thinking.
SenAnder 3y ago
> everyone appears to know about it - and nobody seems to care "Why do you care? Are you saying that makes European colonization justified? Are you trying to imply Europeans should feel slightly less guilty? That they are not history's sole villains? That these were "savages" in need of "civilizing"? Are you some kind of Nazi? I wonder how your employer will feel about having a white-supremacy-apologist on their payroll. Hey everyone, this guy is defending colonialism and genocide!" See this play out a few times, and you learn to shut up. Edit: Right on cue: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37698608 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37698608 Note how the story linked therein [1] minimizes the genocide by calling it a "myth" in the title, and in the body reduces it to: In 1835 a group of about 900 Taranaki Māori [..] sailed from Wellington to the Chathams, with the intention to make it their new home. They had recently been driven out of their own rohe during the Musket Wars. Shortly after they arrived they killed around 300 Moriori and enslaved the rest. So yes, some Māori did kill some Moriori, and the story is an awful one – but to attribute this to all Māori is wrong, and if you find yourself wanting to do it you should question your motives in doing so. Wikipedia [2,3] describes it slightly differently: Later, a prominent pacifist culture emerged; [..] This culture made it easier for Taranaki Māori invaders to nearly exterminate them in the 1830s during the Musket Wars. This was the Moriori genocide, in which the Moriori were either murdered or enslaved by members of the Ngāti Mutunga and Ngāti Tama iwi, killing or displacing nearly 95% of the Moriori population. What does this tell us about when is it permissible to minimize and deny genocides? [1] https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/03-08-2018/the-moriori-myth-and-why-its-still-with-us https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/03-08-2018/the-moriori-myth-an... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori - "Currently there are around 700 people who identify as Moriori" [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_people - "A June 2022 estimate gives the Māori ethnic population of New Zealand as 892,200"
- PlunderBunny 3y ago
  >Note how the story linked therein [1] minimizes the genocide by calling it a "myth" What they're calling a myth is the idea that Moriori were a pre-Maori race, not that there was a genocide.

defrost 3y ago

> despite what it implies for the history of the Maori culture. Which is?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
chongli 3y ago
That they committed genocide. I think one of the worst aspects of (human nature? Dominant culture? I don't know why people think this way) is that people somehow cannot internalize the concept that a person can be both a victim and a perpetrator. You're either one or the other, never both. This issue is especially acute when it comes to colonialism. It's so bad that it robs people of agency. Victims of colonialism are practically infantilized by the very people who are supposed to be defending them.
- defrost 3y ago
  > That they committed genocide. Not exactly new knowledge there though, is it? I first heard that in ~1980 from both Māori and Pakeha in both Australia and New Zealand. It's pretty much a core part of (say) Once Were Warriors that they historically had a fierce fighting culture. > people somehow cannot internalize the concept that a person can be both a victim and a perpetrator. Depends on the person really, though, doesn't it. Many people can walk and chew gum while thinking compex thoughts about others in the world. Other people seem to think that they alone can do so while projecting an inability to do so on others. > Victims of colonialism are practically infantilized by the very people who are supposed to be defending them. Not everybody wanders about wearing a halo of white savior complex though, do they? One critique of a certain subclass of "the right" is that they like to homogenous "the left" and reduce them all down to some dopey cartoon characterization .. which is hardly higher level thinking.

SenAnder 3y ago

> everyone appears to know about it - and nobody seems to care "Why do you care? Are you saying that makes European colonization justified? Are you trying to imply Europeans should feel slightly less guilty? That they are not history's sole villains? That these were "savages" in need of "civilizing"? Are you some kind of Nazi? I wonder how your employer will feel about having a white-supremacy-apologist on their payroll. Hey everyone, this guy is defending colonialism and genocide!" See this play out a few times, and you learn to shut up. Edit: Right on cue: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37698608 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37698608 Note how the story linked therein [1] minimizes the genocide by calling it a "myth" in the title, and in the body reduces it to: In 1835 a group of about 900 Taranaki Māori [..] sailed from Wellington to the Chathams, with the intention to make it their new home. They had recently been driven out of their own rohe during the Musket Wars. Shortly after they arrived they killed around 300 Moriori and enslaved the rest. So yes, some Māori did kill some Moriori, and the story is an awful one – but to attribute this to all Māori is wrong, and if you find yourself wanting to do it you should question your motives in doing so. Wikipedia [2,3] describes it slightly differently: Later, a prominent pacifist culture emerged; [..] This culture made it easier for Taranaki Māori invaders to nearly exterminate them in the 1830s during the Musket Wars. This was the Moriori genocide, in which the Moriori were either murdered or enslaved by members of the Ngāti Mutunga and Ngāti Tama iwi, killing or displacing nearly 95% of the Moriori population. What does this tell us about when is it permissible to minimize and deny genocides? [1] https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/03-08-2018/the-moriori-myth-and-why-its-still-with-us https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/03-08-2018/the-moriori-myth-an... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori - "Currently there are around 700 people who identify as Moriori" [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_people - "A June 2022 estimate gives the Māori ethnic population of New Zealand as 892,200"

PlunderBunny 3y ago
>Note how the story linked therein [1] minimizes the genocide by calling it a "myth" What they're calling a myth is the idea that Moriori were a pre-Maori race, not that there was a genocide.