4 ms·

> I don't know about you, but I don't think the government should artificially depress wages like that. I agree. I don't think the government should provide a

> I don't know about you, but I don't think the government should artificially depress wages like that. I agree. I don't think the government should provide any welfare services. Just as I don't think they should artificially skew market equilibrium through minimum wage or rent controls.

woodruffw 3y ago
I don't agree with that. This isn't a place where I find mathematical balance interesting; minimum wages exist to protect those who would otherwise be forced into indigence by the power asymmetry in their bargaining abilities. Similarly, we provide a safety net to minimize indigence that would otherwise have significant external negative costs. Cruelty is only cheap at the margin; the state provides a valuable service by making it illegal to externalize cruelty's costs.
- hellojesus 3y ago
  > Cruelty is only cheap at the margin; the state provides a valuable service by making it illegal to externalize cruelty's costs. We have opposing views, and that's okay. I believe that private charity should be the mechanism utilized to reduce the external costs of cruelty. It generates the most efficient solutions, and allows each person to maximize the utility of their givings. I believe the government mandated solution is inefficient and often robs people of their charitable purchasing power.
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    Okay. We’re well off the topic at this point, so we can leave it at that.
  - jkubicek 3y ago
    > It generates the most efficient solutions This feels obviously untrue to me, I'd love to hear your argument for why you think it's true. I have no economic reason to donate, the most efficient solution for me personally is to give $0 to charity. If we decide, as a country, that it's important for our brothers and sisters to not starve to death, it seems to me that the most efficient system is one that's centralized, evidence-based, and supported by mandatory contributions.
    - hellojesus 3y ago
      > It generates the most efficient solutions >> I have no economic reason to donate, the most efficient solution for me personally is to give $0 to charity. So we agree that you were able to increase the efficiency of your capital expenditure by not giving to charity. That is an increase in the efficiency of capital allocation over the taxation approach. > If we decide, as a country, that it's important for our brothers and sisters to not starve to death, it seems to me that the most efficient system is one that's centralized, evidence-based, and supported by mandatory contributions. Now you're contradicting the $0 charitable allocation. If you want to prevent starvation, then your optimal charitable contributions would be nonzero. All society does in your example is force everyone to give to a cause that not everyone may want to give to. You're able to lower your contribution to the cause by forcing your neighbor to give to it under threat of violence. This is the problem I have with welfare, and this situation is known as "tyranny of the majority," which is what the republic US system sought to avoid.
isykt 3y ago
What do you think happens when people don’t get enough to eat? Do you think the lay down and die, or do you think they commit crimes? History tells us which is the right answer.
- hellojesus 3y ago
  Perhaps they lean on their network of friends and family to help them out? If that fails, perhaps they seek out charity from a local perish or organization or ngo? This is a solved problem, but the outsourcing of our troubles in a "fire and forget" way such as through taxes has both diminished the private sector's ability to provide as well as turned it into someone else's problem: "Well I pay my taxes so it's the governments responsibility now."
  - deprecative 3y ago
    It's fascinating to read your descriptions of economic realities then describe taxes as a way to get through these problems but only if you can have additional profit seeking and added layers of bureaucracy.
    - hellojesus 3y ago
      What added layers of bureaucracy? I describe a system that is maximally efficient for the individual.

woodruffw 3y ago

I don't agree with that. This isn't a place where I find mathematical balance interesting; minimum wages exist to protect those who would otherwise be forced into indigence by the power asymmetry in their bargaining abilities. Similarly, we provide a safety net to minimize indigence that would otherwise have significant external negative costs. Cruelty is only cheap at the margin; the state provides a valuable service by making it illegal to externalize cruelty's costs.

hellojesus 3y ago
> Cruelty is only cheap at the margin; the state provides a valuable service by making it illegal to externalize cruelty's costs. We have opposing views, and that's okay. I believe that private charity should be the mechanism utilized to reduce the external costs of cruelty. It generates the most efficient solutions, and allows each person to maximize the utility of their givings. I believe the government mandated solution is inefficient and often robs people of their charitable purchasing power.
- woodruffw 3y ago
  Okay. We’re well off the topic at this point, so we can leave it at that.
- jkubicek 3y ago
  > It generates the most efficient solutions This feels obviously untrue to me, I'd love to hear your argument for why you think it's true. I have no economic reason to donate, the most efficient solution for me personally is to give $0 to charity. If we decide, as a country, that it's important for our brothers and sisters to not starve to death, it seems to me that the most efficient system is one that's centralized, evidence-based, and supported by mandatory contributions.
  - hellojesus 3y ago
    > It generates the most efficient solutions >> I have no economic reason to donate, the most efficient solution for me personally is to give $0 to charity. So we agree that you were able to increase the efficiency of your capital expenditure by not giving to charity. That is an increase in the efficiency of capital allocation over the taxation approach. > If we decide, as a country, that it's important for our brothers and sisters to not starve to death, it seems to me that the most efficient system is one that's centralized, evidence-based, and supported by mandatory contributions. Now you're contradicting the $0 charitable allocation. If you want to prevent starvation, then your optimal charitable contributions would be nonzero. All society does in your example is force everyone to give to a cause that not everyone may want to give to. You're able to lower your contribution to the cause by forcing your neighbor to give to it under threat of violence. This is the problem I have with welfare, and this situation is known as "tyranny of the majority," which is what the republic US system sought to avoid.

isykt 3y ago

What do you think happens when people don’t get enough to eat? Do you think the lay down and die, or do you think they commit crimes? History tells us which is the right answer.

hellojesus 3y ago
Perhaps they lean on their network of friends and family to help them out? If that fails, perhaps they seek out charity from a local perish or organization or ngo? This is a solved problem, but the outsourcing of our troubles in a "fire and forget" way such as through taxes has both diminished the private sector's ability to provide as well as turned it into someone else's problem: "Well I pay my taxes so it's the governments responsibility now."
- deprecative 3y ago
  It's fascinating to read your descriptions of economic realities then describe taxes as a way to get through these problems but only if you can have additional profit seeking and added layers of bureaucracy.
  - hellojesus 3y ago
    What added layers of bureaucracy? I describe a system that is maximally efficient for the individual.