6 ms·

Can you point to any place where integration between widly different cultures worked on the long term? One place where mass immigration didn't result in the ero

Can you point to any place where integration between widly different cultures worked on the long term? One place where mass immigration didn't result in the erosion of social trust, safety concerns and political divide through ethnic lines?

twelve40 3y ago
well, arguably the USofA seems to be doing a relatively decent job managing a multitude of cultures over a few centuries... given that at some point, almost everyone was an immigrant (after a number of violent events removed almost all of the locals)
- thegrim33 3y ago
  The US was over 80% white, often over 90% white, for the vast majority of its existence [0]. It was relatively unified in race and culture for the last 400 years. Only since the 1960s/1970s was the immigration floodgates truly opened and the demographics significantly changed. If anything, the way things have been falling apart in the last 50 years is directly contrary to increased diversity of culture being beneficial. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic_demographics_of_the_United_States#/media/File:Complete_history_of_the_Racial_and_ethnic_demographics_of_the_United_States_in_percentage_of_the_population.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic_d...
  - jstarfish 3y ago
    > It was relatively unified in race and culture for the last 400 years. Only since the 1960s/1970s was the immigration floodgates truly opened and the demographics significantly changed. If anything, the way things have been falling apart in the last 50 years is directly contrary to increased diversity of culture being beneficial. It was relatively unified because blacks were subjugated until 1968, despite the bloodiest civil war in history liberating them from slavery 100 years before that. Where are you coming from with this? Diversity isn't a problem in itself; we just have no singular culture for everyone to assimilate into so we trend towards chaos. "When in Rome" has never applied here.
    - twelve40 3y ago
      chaos is an exaggeration. Somalia is chaos, here it's mostly first-world problems and a massive success compared to the real chaos.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - dsq 3y ago
    Italians, Jews and even Irish were not considered 'white', which was reserved for descendants of British immigrants, due to the general racial theories that dominated the pre-WW2 era. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/12/opinion/columbus-day-italian-american-racism.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/12/opinion/colum...
haroldp 3y ago
The United States. Singapore.
- Gud 3y ago
  These are terrible examples. I absolutely don't want Sweden to turn into either those countries. Extreme class divide in the 1st case, massive judicial injustice, plus the US has kind of been trending downwards since the 1970s... And Singapore is an extremely authoritarian country. Anyway, these countries have not invited 1 million+ people from a dramatically different(read: backwards) cultures that are completely incompatible. Singapore has invited skilled labor from all over the world. If 1 million Polish or 1 million Portuguese had migrated to Sweden over the last 20 years, I doubt we would be having such problems.
  - defrost 3y ago
    > these countries have not invited 1 million+ people from a dramatically different(read: backwards) cultures Sweden's had quite the spread from backwards nations to reach that 1 million (2010 - 2020 inclusive): * Poland 47,940 * Somalia 46,044 * Germany 26,945 * Finland 26,521 * Denmark 21,792 * United Kingdom 21,285 * Norway 21,265 * United States 19,378 etc. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Sweden#Contemporary_immigration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Sweden#Contempo... ) With the largest number, 177,154 from Syria - more wartorn and shredded by decades of totalitarian dictatorship than intrinsically 'backwards'.
  - haroldp 3y ago
    He asked if there were countries, "where integration between widly[sic] different cultures worked on the long term," and I answered that there were. And it was easy as there are many such examples. This was not a claim that Singapore was superior in every way to Sweden. Merely that multi-cultural countries can be stable and successful. You don't want to live in Singapore, and that's fine, but you all have to move your goalposts away from, "multiculturalism doesn't work," because it absolutely can work. > the US has kind of been trending downwards since the 1970s The US and Sweden both had a rough 1970s, and both bounced back pretty well. > Anyway, these countries have not invited 1 million+ people from a dramatically different(read: backwards) cultures that are completely incompatible. The US accepts about a million new immigrants every year, give or take, and has forever. The accents have changed somewhat over my lifetime time but almost all of them have been from countries that are poor and experiencing very bad things. It is a core strength of America that we collect people from all over, quickly turn them into Americans, and borrow the best things about where they came from, and call them our own. Some of my ancestors emigrated to America from Sweden, and I will say that I am very glad that they did for the economic opportunities they found here and because I didn't have to grow up in a monoculture.
thegrim33 3y ago
It's pretty interesting, if you read through the Federalist papers, where they were discussing how to set up the US states/government, they were seriously debating and worried about whether a state full of people from England could coexist next to a state full of people from France. They were seriously worried that even people that similar, from almost the same place and culture, would eventually fracture on their differences and go to war with each other. What a world we live in today in comparison.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- benterix 3y ago
  Except that was an academic discussion and eventually there were no problems between people of English and French descent, whereas what we're dealing with now is a very real issue and I don't think the so-called cultural differences are the main problem here.
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    > English and French descent > descent 30 years after showing up most of them were speaking English and generally living in roughly the same culture (be it Catholic or Protestant) with roughly similar expectations. As opposed to Muslim, East Asian, Aztec, etc. Like my people were French huguenots (protestants) and rapidly turned into any other VA tobacco farmers
- dsq 3y ago
  The US was always the melting pot model, where immigrants assimilated into the general American culture. The second generation spoke 'Merican just like the locals. Italians, Germans, Poles, all became standard USians.
  - southernplaces7 3y ago
    And it continues to this very day. Your average latino American or Asian american just about can't assimilate quickly enough most of the time, and within one generation most fully identify as Americans without rejecting the fundamentals of their origin culture. One can wish and wash about racism in U.S. society in many ways but compared to many countries, the country is remarkably effective at assimilating people from extremely diverse places and making them feel like they belong to its society. Canada does a decent job of it too but I've never quite seem any country pull it off as well as the U.S., maybe because it has such a specifically charismatic cultural image from decades of overwhelmingly, globally popular cinema, pop culture and etc.
mensetmanusman 3y ago
There are no functioning cultures by some definitions.
defrost 3y ago
Sure: https://www.sbs.com.au/voices/creative/the-karen-road-to-nhill/pzskeosfk https://www.sbs.com.au/voices/creative/the-karen-road-to-nhi... and there are other examples.
go8 3y ago
Mumbai. But you need major sustained growth, gigantic slums and mafias to keep the peace.
- fakedang 3y ago
  You sure about that? The Shiv Sena would like to disagree, as well as the Marwari-only colonies.

twelve40 3y ago

well, arguably the USofA seems to be doing a relatively decent job managing a multitude of cultures over a few centuries... given that at some point, almost everyone was an immigrant (after a number of violent events removed almost all of the locals)

thegrim33 3y ago
The US was over 80% white, often over 90% white, for the vast majority of its existence [0]. It was relatively unified in race and culture for the last 400 years. Only since the 1960s/1970s was the immigration floodgates truly opened and the demographics significantly changed. If anything, the way things have been falling apart in the last 50 years is directly contrary to increased diversity of culture being beneficial. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic_demographics_of_the_United_States#/media/File:Complete_history_of_the_Racial_and_ethnic_demographics_of_the_United_States_in_percentage_of_the_population.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic_d...
- jstarfish 3y ago
  > It was relatively unified in race and culture for the last 400 years. Only since the 1960s/1970s was the immigration floodgates truly opened and the demographics significantly changed. If anything, the way things have been falling apart in the last 50 years is directly contrary to increased diversity of culture being beneficial. It was relatively unified because blacks were subjugated until 1968, despite the bloodiest civil war in history liberating them from slavery 100 years before that. Where are you coming from with this? Diversity isn't a problem in itself; we just have no singular culture for everyone to assimilate into so we trend towards chaos. "When in Rome" has never applied here.
  - twelve40 3y ago
    chaos is an exaggeration. Somalia is chaos, here it's mostly first-world problems and a massive success compared to the real chaos.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- dsq 3y ago
  Italians, Jews and even Irish were not considered 'white', which was reserved for descendants of British immigrants, due to the general racial theories that dominated the pre-WW2 era. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/12/opinion/columbus-day-italian-american-racism.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/12/opinion/colum...

haroldp 3y ago

The United States. Singapore.

Gud 3y ago
These are terrible examples. I absolutely don't want Sweden to turn into either those countries. Extreme class divide in the 1st case, massive judicial injustice, plus the US has kind of been trending downwards since the 1970s... And Singapore is an extremely authoritarian country. Anyway, these countries have not invited 1 million+ people from a dramatically different(read: backwards) cultures that are completely incompatible. Singapore has invited skilled labor from all over the world. If 1 million Polish or 1 million Portuguese had migrated to Sweden over the last 20 years, I doubt we would be having such problems.
- defrost 3y ago
  > these countries have not invited 1 million+ people from a dramatically different(read: backwards) cultures Sweden's had quite the spread from backwards nations to reach that 1 million (2010 - 2020 inclusive): * Poland 47,940 * Somalia 46,044 * Germany 26,945 * Finland 26,521 * Denmark 21,792 * United Kingdom 21,285 * Norway 21,265 * United States 19,378 etc. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Sweden#Contemporary_immigration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Sweden#Contempo... ) With the largest number, 177,154 from Syria - more wartorn and shredded by decades of totalitarian dictatorship than intrinsically 'backwards'.
- haroldp 3y ago
  He asked if there were countries, "where integration between widly[sic] different cultures worked on the long term," and I answered that there were. And it was easy as there are many such examples. This was not a claim that Singapore was superior in every way to Sweden. Merely that multi-cultural countries can be stable and successful. You don't want to live in Singapore, and that's fine, but you all have to move your goalposts away from, "multiculturalism doesn't work," because it absolutely can work. > the US has kind of been trending downwards since the 1970s The US and Sweden both had a rough 1970s, and both bounced back pretty well. > Anyway, these countries have not invited 1 million+ people from a dramatically different(read: backwards) cultures that are completely incompatible. The US accepts about a million new immigrants every year, give or take, and has forever. The accents have changed somewhat over my lifetime time but almost all of them have been from countries that are poor and experiencing very bad things. It is a core strength of America that we collect people from all over, quickly turn them into Americans, and borrow the best things about where they came from, and call them our own. Some of my ancestors emigrated to America from Sweden, and I will say that I am very glad that they did for the economic opportunities they found here and because I didn't have to grow up in a monoculture.

thegrim33 3y ago

It's pretty interesting, if you read through the Federalist papers, where they were discussing how to set up the US states/government, they were seriously debating and worried about whether a state full of people from England could coexist next to a state full of people from France. They were seriously worried that even people that similar, from almost the same place and culture, would eventually fracture on their differences and go to war with each other. What a world we live in today in comparison.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
benterix 3y ago
Except that was an academic discussion and eventually there were no problems between people of English and French descent, whereas what we're dealing with now is a very real issue and I don't think the so-called cultural differences are the main problem here.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  > English and French descent > descent 30 years after showing up most of them were speaking English and generally living in roughly the same culture (be it Catholic or Protestant) with roughly similar expectations. As opposed to Muslim, East Asian, Aztec, etc. Like my people were French huguenots (protestants) and rapidly turned into any other VA tobacco farmers
dsq 3y ago
The US was always the melting pot model, where immigrants assimilated into the general American culture. The second generation spoke 'Merican just like the locals. Italians, Germans, Poles, all became standard USians.
- southernplaces7 3y ago
  And it continues to this very day. Your average latino American or Asian american just about can't assimilate quickly enough most of the time, and within one generation most fully identify as Americans without rejecting the fundamentals of their origin culture. One can wish and wash about racism in U.S. society in many ways but compared to many countries, the country is remarkably effective at assimilating people from extremely diverse places and making them feel like they belong to its society. Canada does a decent job of it too but I've never quite seem any country pull it off as well as the U.S., maybe because it has such a specifically charismatic cultural image from decades of overwhelmingly, globally popular cinema, pop culture and etc.

mensetmanusman 3y ago

There are no functioning cultures by some definitions.

defrost 3y ago

Sure: https://www.sbs.com.au/voices/creative/the-karen-road-to-nhill/pzskeosfk https://www.sbs.com.au/voices/creative/the-karen-road-to-nhi... and there are other examples.

go8 3y ago

Mumbai. But you need major sustained growth, gigantic slums and mafias to keep the peace.

fakedang 3y ago
You sure about that? The Shiv Sena would like to disagree, as well as the Marwari-only colonies.