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One of my fantasies is becoming elected president and creating a constitutional amendment against minimum wage. It is truly one of the most egregious and inhum

One of my fantasies is becoming elected president and creating a constitutional amendment against minimum wage. It is truly one of the most egregious and inhuman concoctions of modern collectivism. No government or king should have that kind of power over its people. You are dictating by fiat that there not be any jobs below a certain price/threshold. You are de-facto sentencing all the people below a certain IQ, skill, competence, age, experience etc to be permanently subjugated to government handouts or destitution. You are eliminating the concept of teenage labor and apprenticeships (almost) entirely. Why would I hire an inexperienced guy for a job if I have to pay him the same as a normal guy. Same goes for kids, why would I hire kids? This is used to be a crucial pillar of society. Not because the evil capitalist bakery could exploit kids or because they kids need the money. Its a crucial integration point. The idea that you completely shield kids from society until after college is a crime against humanity. Do you have any idea how important it is to be given responsibility, work hard and enjoy the fruits of your own labour at a very young age. Even I can't fully grasp the consequences of depriving this from our kids. This is just the beginning what about low iq people? I mean people that have IQs so low that they can't even pass the military test. Something like 5% of the population falls in this category. Should the be deprived of what ever dignity they have left and live the remainder of the lives as a federal benefactor. Same goes for a huge chunk of disabled people.. There are so many other examples I haven't even though of yet and thats exactly the problem with you collectivists. You guys think you have it all figured out and you can easily restructure the millennia old experiment of civilisation itself from the top down.

dragonwriter 3y ago
> One of my fantasies is becoming elected president and creating a constitutional amendment against minimum wage. The President is the single weakest elected official at the federal level (and weaker than many at the state level) in terms of a Constitutional amendment, having no role at all in proposing or ratifying them, so its a silly fantasy for reasons beyond the viability of such an amendment itself.
hparadiz 3y ago
Everything you just wrote is wrong and I'm only commenting to make you aware of that. Enjoy your downvotes.
- jacamera 3y ago
  Your comment contributes nothing to the conversation and I'm only commenting to make you aware of that. Enjoy your upvotes.
  - hparadiz 3y ago
    This dude is externalizing the costs of training the american workforce which is done with taxes. He claims a young person is untrained when in reality by 16 years old a person in the United States is better educated and trained in all sorts of skills than the vast majority of the human race on the entire globe. This person then wants to claim that such a person has "low economic output". I could break down every single thing in his comment point by point by I really don't have time to write a book for you. Suffice to say he's just plain wrong. Morally and in basic factual assumptions about how the economy works.
    - pc_edwin 3y ago
      > training the american workforce which is done with taxes Thats the entire point/undertone of my post. We have replaced crucially important aspects of society like integrating kids (Rites of Passage), apprenticeships, taking care of the elderly with federal soylent. > 16 years old a person in the United States is better educated and trained in all sorts of skills You cannot replace hard work, communication, conflicts, expectations, real time problem solving, handling pressure, social minutia etc with algebra and slicing a frog apart. > claim that such a person has "low economic output" I've never said that. My point was about people who got dealt a bad hand in life. Whether if its IQ, disability, upbringing etc. Society used to have a place for these people now its Federal Soylent™
timeon 3y ago
> Why would I hire an inexperienced guy for a job if I have to pay him the same as a normal guy. You hire people not because of skill but the fact that they can be exploited or not?
- hparadiz 3y ago
  For some reason there's people who legitimately think that minimum wage is destroying their freedom when in reality they are some 50 year old dude who wants to see if a 15 year old will take their low ball offer... the same hourly wage they were paid 35 years ago. I live in a very wealthy suburb of LA where minimum wage is already $14.50 and my local In-n-out pays $19. Everyone at the fast food spots near me is clearly in high school or college. Clearly they "generate economic output". Gimme a break. Pretty sure the kid at the local Sprouts is like 17. A large cheese pizza near me is $24. If someone can't buy a pizza after working for you for two hours then you have no right to be speaking about "economic value".
  - paulddraper 3y ago
    > A large cheese pizza near me is $24 Holy moly. For me that's $7-$16 depending on the quality.
- pc_edwin 3y ago
  Lets put this in software terms: Lets say I have a software development agency focusing on scaling sophisticated platforms. There are plenty of rote repetitive stuff thats not critical in nature. So it would make sense to hire a guy/gal who just got out a bootcamp. They basically get paid to learn & polish their resume while you get low value stuff done with the added benefit of potential valuable team member in the making. Now imagine if California passed a law saying all software development jobs must be payed $50/hr. Mind you this was already a barely an acceptable trade for agency with a lot going on these employees sticking with the agency after they gained some experience.
toast0 3y ago
> One of my fantasies is becoming elected president and creating a constitutional amendment against minimum wage. The president really doesn't have anything to do with the constitutional amendment process. It's a legislative process, so congress and senate; plus the legislatures of the states. This is like when someone wants to be mayor to fix the schools. In most places I'm aware of, schools are governed by school districts and school districts are supervised by the state department of education and the county board or supervisors for the counties they operate in, and city government has nothing to do with their operation, but still mayors want to fix schools. Anyway, federal minimum wage is much lower than minimum wages in states with their own rules. If it makes life dramatically better to not have one, companies and people would flock to states without. If it makes things dramatically better to have one, companies and people would flock to states with one. Seems like it's not a major driver of life being better or worse.
- paulddraper 3y ago
  Technically true, but in practice the president sets the legislative/national agenda. Like even tho Congress passed the American Rescue Plan, we say it was "Biden's"
  - toast0 3y ago
    Sure, the president proposes things for legislature to adopt so he (or she) can sign. Amendments don't touch the President's desk, and the Senate and House get mad when the President meddles in things that are for them alone. If the dream is to pass an ammendment, it might be more effective to form a single issue party, like the Prohibition Party and raise the issue that way. Prohibition passed, but their presidential candidates never had a chance of election.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
paulddraper 3y ago
> You guys think you have it all figured out People don't like facts, they like belief. They want to believe that everyone is worth $30/hour.
- fzeroracer 3y ago
  I believe in a very simple fact, which is that minimum wage has remained stagnant in comparison to inflation. That means the purchasing power of someone that made minimum wage 30 years ago has sharply gone down.
grecy 3y ago
I completely understand your point of view, but there is another way of looking at it. Imagine a world with no minimum wage. Imagine you work all day in the fields picking fruit, backbreaking, in the hot sun. Imagine you get paid not much for this. Everything else still costs the same as it does now, you just don't get paid enough to have a car, or a house, or even make electricity bills each month. You get two jobs. Even three. You still barely make ends meet working 100 hours a week. Is that a good life? Is that a life you want to live? Is that a life you want your kids, friends and neighbours to live? Minimum wage is not about a government or king setting a bar that there not be any jobs below a certain price/threshold. It is about a government (or king) setting a bar saying "for people live a decent life in this society, they must earn x dollars per hour. Paying them less than that is closer to slavery than a successful society, and we want to treat people humanely and give them a chance at a decent life with running water and hot showers." (FWIW, Government (or king) needs to do this because otherwise employers would just pay the least they could possibly get away with so they can maximize profits) If you're against a decent minimum wage, you're saying you're perfectly happy for your family, friends, kids & neighbours in your society to live in squalor and have a horrendously bad quality of life. Forever. That's not a nice society to live in.
- Jensson 3y ago
  > Imagine a world with no minimum wage Already exists in many western countries, it isn't hell.
  - grecy 3y ago
    > Already exists in many western countries, it isn't hell Do you have a source please? US has a lower minimum wage than 21 OECD countries [1] and is comparable to Romania, Croatia and Hungary. [1] https://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=RMW https://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=RMW
- pc_edwin 3y ago
  Honestly your respectful tone is refreshing. Based on my past experience with HN, I was bracing for a complete evisceration lol. The issue I have is you're painting a distorted picture of reality that reads like a badly written fairytail with evil fatcats and poor Victim™ workers. In reality, middle class America's purchasing power wasn't destroyed by the lack of a decent minimum wage or the greed of your local barbers, it was destroyed by inflation sponsored and accelerated by the one and only: Uncle Sam Starting with the FDR era socialists policies that set the stage, we built an economy with embedded growth obligations (social security etc) addicted to credit and growth, like a junkie desperate for the next fix. This credit-based system, with roots in Marxism, Keynesianism, and MMT, has become too big to fail. So we keep it afloat by handouts (methadone) and bailouts (sugar daddy), in a vicious cycle of robbing Peter to pay Paul. The issue is we are not all Peter or Paul. There is this phenomenon called the Cantillon effect where those closest to the money printer get richer, while the rest of us foot the bill This perpetuates a cycle where the middle class gets stripped of its purchasing power while simultaneously tangible goods like houses and commodities become even further out reach as those closest to the money printer and smart third parties race into real things. This is where things go from ugly to end of Pax Americana. Instead of addressing the root issues, you and your kin want double down. More intervention (Federal Soylent™), more byzantine regulations and straight out persecution of the merchant class. It sounds like hyperbole, I wish it was hyperbole but its not. "Eat the rich" isn't a parody, its the rallying cry of the ruling party. They are just about to ritualistically sacrifice the auto industry to moloch. We live in the most prosperous nation in history. Poor people today live in luxury compared to most people just a century ago. However, things are taking a bad turn thanks to collectivism. That said, we are talking about a very small subset of the population. Even among that cohort, its mostly crippling financial education/management problems. You have illegal aliens coming here with no wealth and no access to welfare who manage to not only survive but also send money back to their families. we should strive to continually improve our bargain with nature but the ideas you and your kin share will bring about the end of modern civilisation as we know it.
matthewfelgate 3y ago
The Minimum Wage has worked out pretty well in the UK.
- pc_edwin 3y ago
  As I'm writing this from the UK I'm not sure I see the "worked out pretty well", especially considering the bakery below me who had to let go off my cousin and the town centre which looks nothing like my youth when it was filled with big stores. Btw, we British at least try to maintain the appearance of sensibility & wisdom so there is a quasi attempt to address my concerns from the OP with a different minimum wage for those under 18 and a government push for apprenticeships/trades. That said, it still temporary band aids that doesn't do much of anything. Its also worth noting, the highest minimum wage here is just about $15 and thats in London.

dragonwriter 3y ago

> One of my fantasies is becoming elected president and creating a constitutional amendment against minimum wage. The President is the single weakest elected official at the federal level (and weaker than many at the state level) in terms of a Constitutional amendment, having no role at all in proposing or ratifying them, so its a silly fantasy for reasons beyond the viability of such an amendment itself.

hparadiz 3y ago

Everything you just wrote is wrong and I'm only commenting to make you aware of that. Enjoy your downvotes.

jacamera 3y ago
Your comment contributes nothing to the conversation and I'm only commenting to make you aware of that. Enjoy your upvotes.
- hparadiz 3y ago
  This dude is externalizing the costs of training the american workforce which is done with taxes. He claims a young person is untrained when in reality by 16 years old a person in the United States is better educated and trained in all sorts of skills than the vast majority of the human race on the entire globe. This person then wants to claim that such a person has "low economic output". I could break down every single thing in his comment point by point by I really don't have time to write a book for you. Suffice to say he's just plain wrong. Morally and in basic factual assumptions about how the economy works.
  - pc_edwin 3y ago
    > training the american workforce which is done with taxes Thats the entire point/undertone of my post. We have replaced crucially important aspects of society like integrating kids (Rites of Passage), apprenticeships, taking care of the elderly with federal soylent. > 16 years old a person in the United States is better educated and trained in all sorts of skills You cannot replace hard work, communication, conflicts, expectations, real time problem solving, handling pressure, social minutia etc with algebra and slicing a frog apart. > claim that such a person has "low economic output" I've never said that. My point was about people who got dealt a bad hand in life. Whether if its IQ, disability, upbringing etc. Society used to have a place for these people now its Federal Soylent™

timeon 3y ago

> Why would I hire an inexperienced guy for a job if I have to pay him the same as a normal guy. You hire people not because of skill but the fact that they can be exploited or not?

hparadiz 3y ago
For some reason there's people who legitimately think that minimum wage is destroying their freedom when in reality they are some 50 year old dude who wants to see if a 15 year old will take their low ball offer... the same hourly wage they were paid 35 years ago. I live in a very wealthy suburb of LA where minimum wage is already $14.50 and my local In-n-out pays $19. Everyone at the fast food spots near me is clearly in high school or college. Clearly they "generate economic output". Gimme a break. Pretty sure the kid at the local Sprouts is like 17. A large cheese pizza near me is $24. If someone can't buy a pizza after working for you for two hours then you have no right to be speaking about "economic value".
- paulddraper 3y ago
  > A large cheese pizza near me is $24 Holy moly. For me that's $7-$16 depending on the quality.
pc_edwin 3y ago
Lets put this in software terms: Lets say I have a software development agency focusing on scaling sophisticated platforms. There are plenty of rote repetitive stuff thats not critical in nature. So it would make sense to hire a guy/gal who just got out a bootcamp. They basically get paid to learn & polish their resume while you get low value stuff done with the added benefit of potential valuable team member in the making. Now imagine if California passed a law saying all software development jobs must be payed $50/hr. Mind you this was already a barely an acceptable trade for agency with a lot going on these employees sticking with the agency after they gained some experience.

toast0 3y ago

> One of my fantasies is becoming elected president and creating a constitutional amendment against minimum wage. The president really doesn't have anything to do with the constitutional amendment process. It's a legislative process, so congress and senate; plus the legislatures of the states. This is like when someone wants to be mayor to fix the schools. In most places I'm aware of, schools are governed by school districts and school districts are supervised by the state department of education and the county board or supervisors for the counties they operate in, and city government has nothing to do with their operation, but still mayors want to fix schools. Anyway, federal minimum wage is much lower than minimum wages in states with their own rules. If it makes life dramatically better to not have one, companies and people would flock to states without. If it makes things dramatically better to have one, companies and people would flock to states with one. Seems like it's not a major driver of life being better or worse.

paulddraper 3y ago
Technically true, but in practice the president sets the legislative/national agenda. Like even tho Congress passed the American Rescue Plan, we say it was "Biden's"
- toast0 3y ago
  Sure, the president proposes things for legislature to adopt so he (or she) can sign. Amendments don't touch the President's desk, and the Senate and House get mad when the President meddles in things that are for them alone. If the dream is to pass an ammendment, it might be more effective to form a single issue party, like the Prohibition Party and raise the issue that way. Prohibition passed, but their presidential candidates never had a chance of election.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

paulddraper 3y ago

> You guys think you have it all figured out People don't like facts, they like belief. They want to believe that everyone is worth $30/hour.

fzeroracer 3y ago
I believe in a very simple fact, which is that minimum wage has remained stagnant in comparison to inflation. That means the purchasing power of someone that made minimum wage 30 years ago has sharply gone down.

grecy 3y ago

I completely understand your point of view, but there is another way of looking at it. Imagine a world with no minimum wage. Imagine you work all day in the fields picking fruit, backbreaking, in the hot sun. Imagine you get paid not much for this. Everything else still costs the same as it does now, you just don't get paid enough to have a car, or a house, or even make electricity bills each month. You get two jobs. Even three. You still barely make ends meet working 100 hours a week. Is that a good life? Is that a life you want to live? Is that a life you want your kids, friends and neighbours to live? Minimum wage is not about a government or king setting a bar that there not be any jobs below a certain price/threshold. It is about a government (or king) setting a bar saying "for people live a decent life in this society, they must earn x dollars per hour. Paying them less than that is closer to slavery than a successful society, and we want to treat people humanely and give them a chance at a decent life with running water and hot showers." (FWIW, Government (or king) needs to do this because otherwise employers would just pay the least they could possibly get away with so they can maximize profits) If you're against a decent minimum wage, you're saying you're perfectly happy for your family, friends, kids & neighbours in your society to live in squalor and have a horrendously bad quality of life. Forever. That's not a nice society to live in.

Jensson 3y ago
> Imagine a world with no minimum wage Already exists in many western countries, it isn't hell.
- grecy 3y ago
  > Already exists in many western countries, it isn't hell Do you have a source please? US has a lower minimum wage than 21 OECD countries [1] and is comparable to Romania, Croatia and Hungary. [1] https://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=RMW https://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=RMW
pc_edwin 3y ago
Honestly your respectful tone is refreshing. Based on my past experience with HN, I was bracing for a complete evisceration lol. The issue I have is you're painting a distorted picture of reality that reads like a badly written fairytail with evil fatcats and poor Victim™ workers. In reality, middle class America's purchasing power wasn't destroyed by the lack of a decent minimum wage or the greed of your local barbers, it was destroyed by inflation sponsored and accelerated by the one and only: Uncle Sam Starting with the FDR era socialists policies that set the stage, we built an economy with embedded growth obligations (social security etc) addicted to credit and growth, like a junkie desperate for the next fix. This credit-based system, with roots in Marxism, Keynesianism, and MMT, has become too big to fail. So we keep it afloat by handouts (methadone) and bailouts (sugar daddy), in a vicious cycle of robbing Peter to pay Paul. The issue is we are not all Peter or Paul. There is this phenomenon called the Cantillon effect where those closest to the money printer get richer, while the rest of us foot the bill This perpetuates a cycle where the middle class gets stripped of its purchasing power while simultaneously tangible goods like houses and commodities become even further out reach as those closest to the money printer and smart third parties race into real things. This is where things go from ugly to end of Pax Americana. Instead of addressing the root issues, you and your kin want double down. More intervention (Federal Soylent™), more byzantine regulations and straight out persecution of the merchant class. It sounds like hyperbole, I wish it was hyperbole but its not. "Eat the rich" isn't a parody, its the rallying cry of the ruling party. They are just about to ritualistically sacrifice the auto industry to moloch. We live in the most prosperous nation in history. Poor people today live in luxury compared to most people just a century ago. However, things are taking a bad turn thanks to collectivism. That said, we are talking about a very small subset of the population. Even among that cohort, its mostly crippling financial education/management problems. You have illegal aliens coming here with no wealth and no access to welfare who manage to not only survive but also send money back to their families. we should strive to continually improve our bargain with nature but the ideas you and your kin share will bring about the end of modern civilisation as we know it.

matthewfelgate 3y ago

The Minimum Wage has worked out pretty well in the UK.

pc_edwin 3y ago
As I'm writing this from the UK I'm not sure I see the "worked out pretty well", especially considering the bakery below me who had to let go off my cousin and the town centre which looks nothing like my youth when it was filled with big stores. Btw, we British at least try to maintain the appearance of sensibility & wisdom so there is a quasi attempt to address my concerns from the OP with a different minimum wage for those under 18 and a government push for apprenticeships/trades. That said, it still temporary band aids that doesn't do much of anything. Its also worth noting, the highest minimum wage here is just about $15 and thats in London.