8 ms·

I can't help but think that this is just going to accelerate efforts to automate fast food workers. Then once the technology works well enough to replace expens

by bhaney 3y ago

I can't help but think that this is just going to accelerate efforts to automate fast food workers. Then once the technology works well enough to replace expensive labor in California, there'll be very little stopping it from spreading everywhere else, regardless of the minimum wage in other places.

hotpotamus 3y ago
It doesn't appear that Flippy has taken off. I spent a bit of time in a fast food kitchen around 20 years ago and it was already pretty automated, but it seems like human hands are quite hard to beat.
- bhaney 3y ago
  Cooks seem harder to automate, but I'm seeing kiosks replace cashiers more and more lately.
  - MrFoof 3y ago
    My local McDonald's just renovated with what I assume is their newest layout concept. The front counter has exactly two registers/terminals, of which even at a busy time (school out, so tons of teenagers packed into the place), only one was staffed. Very small ordering counter. On the other side of the area is a much larger pick up area with order status screens. There's only two electronic menu boards down from the previous four. Yet six total self-order kiosks (three double-sided), but the real expectation is people will just place the order with the phone via mobile ordering. After all, that's what most of the teenagers order did, in order to get their $0.50 Double Cheeseburger (with no additional purchase). Moreover, you can't see into the kitchen anymore at all. It was a solid wood-decorated wall behind the counter, clearly a "hallway" or partition behind that, of which behind that is likely the actual kitchen. They increased the space of the dining area somewhat as a result.
    - dmoy 3y ago
      > in order to get their $0.50 Double Cheeseburger I haven't been to McDonald's (in the US at least) in like 20 years. Double cheeseburgers are only $0.50?? After inflation that feels like it costs 25% of what I used to pay.
      - bhaney 3y ago
        It's a special offer for using the app, not the normal price
      - mathgeek 3y ago
        It’s a promotional offer to get folks using the app and hopefully turning on ads via notifications.
      - MrFoof 3y ago
        Absolutely not. As others have mentioned, in-app coupon. Haven't seen it recur since (this was a few weeks ago). Normal price of a Double Cheeseburger at that location is $3.89 ($4.13 with sales tax).
        dmoy 3y ago
        Ah okay, that makes a lot more sense
  - calmworm 3y ago
    I much prefer a kiosk or ordering on my phone… and I also rarely do a drive thru order. There is less chance of a mistake when I enter the order myself.
  - CTDOCodebases 3y ago
    This was inevitable. As a human it’s hard to compete with a screen when the person who needs to interact with you has used them for as long as they can remember.
- imchillyb 3y ago
  > https://www.indianarrative.com/culture-news/watch-mcdonalds-rolls-out-its-first-ever-fully-automated-restaurant-with-no-humans-86975.html https://www.indianarrative.com/culture-news/watch-mcdonalds-... December of 2022, McDonald's installed its first fully automated restaurant in Texas. This concept is only about 1-2 years away from burning across the US like a wildfire.
  - hotpotamus 3y ago
    Is there a video showing the internals of this "fully automated" restaurant? Are there robots in there fulfilling the orders or is it people?
    - MrFoof 3y ago
      Per other articles, the restaurant basically employs nearly as many employees as any normal store. The automation is for order taking and delivery (conveyor belt), not cooking. Basically it eliminates the human interaction component for customers, but humans are still doing all the cooking, assembly, and packaging. Think similar to a 1920s automat, but with mobile ordering and drive thru. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/23/mcdonalds-automated-workers-fort-worth-texas https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/23/mcdonalds-a...
      - hotpotamus 3y ago
        That's what I thought I recalled. Like, am I the only one who'd disappointed with the lack of real advancement in automation in this space in my lifetime? I do think the online/kiosk ordering systems are nice, but it doesn't seem like it moves the needle all that much. Also, for what fast food costs these days, I can go to a local sit-down restaurant with a friend, briefly talk with a waiter, and talk to the checkout lady for a minute because we're regulars there and have a very pleasant lunch. I don't exactly long for human interaction at McD's but if we're going to go full automated dystopia (or just pretend that we have by removing all human interaction from the process), then I think it could be a lot cheaper.
georgeburdell 3y ago
If McDonalds is any indication, they’re more interested in stuffing anti patterns and pop-up deals into the kiosk UI to make them meaningful replacements for cashiers
- nirav72 3y ago
  I think McDonald's already saw the writing on the wall in terms of lowering their labor cost. Where I live here in the South-eastern U.S, most McDonald's have moved to Kiosks or ordering via App. They started with 2 Kiosks shortly after the post-2020 labor shortage. Then they added 4 more kiosks to handle the morning and lunch time rush.
  - Gigachad 3y ago
    Australia is so much further along with this. There are no humans taking orders at McDonalds and there haven't been for many years now. Most stores will have about 10 self serve kiosks.
- toast0 3y ago
  McDonalds doesn't automate away a whole position at once, just a bit here and there and soon enough you might be able to handle a rush with one less person, or handle off peak with one less person, or if you can't drop one person, one person has more time to make sure the store is clean and supplies are well stocked etc. The push to self-ordering via kiosk and mobile ordering isn't likely to be 100%, but the registers might be empty at times. The automated soda dispensers don't do all the work, but they reduce labor here and there. The thing to put ketchup and mustard on at the same time saves a step.
LAC-Tech 3y ago
I did a search, and 9% of Californias workforce are undocumented. So you're just likely to see a shift away from the de jure workforce to the de facto workforce, since the costs are lower.
ejb999 3y ago
Yep, $20/hr plus benefits means for a 168 hour per week worker, you (as an business owner) need to possibly pay as much as $285K per year to cover a single worker 24 hours per day - even if a robot cost a $1,000,000 it would pay for itself in less than 4 years...Elon Musk (and other robot manufacturers) thanks you for this law.
mensetmanusman 3y ago
That’s good for society when those technologies are scaled, things become more anti-fragile.
hellojesus 3y ago
It also means that anyone that can provide only $18/hour of economic value is now banned from working at a fast food restaurant.
- aaomidi 3y ago
  So, how are you gauging if someone is offering $18 or $20?
  - hellojesus 3y ago
    Maybe you measure how many burgers they can make in an hour. Each burger sells for $x dollars. You've now quantified how much revenue that employee generates.
    - aaomidi 3y ago
      It is not common for these places to be running at maximum capacity constantly, so no that’s not really relevant here.
      - hellojesus 3y ago
        But it is. Because at some point I will have my labor at maximum capacity. And in all cases they need to produce enough over the duration of their shift to offset the cost of hiring them. Why would I employee two people to work at 50% capacity when I could just hire one? Why hire someone for two hours when I could hire someone else for one. Yes, there are some positions wherein I need someone there whether they're doing work or sitting around. But a business that can minimize costs can win customers so there will always be the need to measure widget output to justify the hire.
- woodruffw 3y ago
  That's not how wages work. Hourly wages aren't based on actual economic value; they're based on a complex of factors that make someone accept or leave a job (convenience, opportunity cost, bargaining power, prior experience, etc.). Fast food restaurants clearly realize more than $20/hr in economic value from their hourly employees in California, much like they do in Europe.
lefstathiou 3y ago
Of course it will. And don’t think the politicians don’t already know this. It’s all part of the plan. Next on the ballot is universal basic income for all who lost their jobs. Voters for life.
toomuchtodo 3y ago
Haven’t automated CEOs away yet, so I’m sure these folks are safe for now. CEOs are much more expensive and provide much less value arguably. No CEO has ever served me a meal, for example.
adrr 3y ago
Warehouse workers get paid around the same rates in California yet you don't see automated warehouses. You see things like some goods to person robots and automated sortation and with the big retailers like Amazon, they still throw labor at the issue. Industry has been trying to push automation with app based ordering(eg: starbucks) even before this change. https://www.indeed.com/q-amazon-warehouse-l-los-angeles,-ca-jobs.html?vjk=e009d03c5ab184e2 https://www.indeed.com/q-amazon-warehouse-l-los-angeles,-ca-...
- jchonphoenix 3y ago
  This is because humanoid robotics is a hard and unsolved problem. But it isn't for lack of trying. Order taking is a simple and very much solved problem. And kitchen robotics is more assembly line esque than warehousing.
- brightball 3y ago
  I wonder how many high school kids take warehouse jobs though?
  - adrr 3y ago
    It was common for in the past for high schoolers to work manual labor. I worked on a farm during the summer in my youth for example. Teenage labor participation is at record lows. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300012 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300012
- Izkata 3y ago
  They may not be there yet, but Amazon at least is absolutely going towards full automation: https://techcrunch.com/2022/06/22/amazon-debuts-a-fully-autonomous-warehouse-robot/ https://techcrunch.com/2022/06/22/amazon-debuts-a-fully-auto...
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paulpauper 3y ago
automation is expensive and hard to do at scale, and also prone to problems. It also does not replace humans. Self-checkout kiosks have been around for 15+ years but have not replaced cashiers. Many fast food places have self-ordering kiosks but this has not made employees obsolete.
- mathgeek 3y ago
  The reality and likely future lies in the middle. Kiosks reduce cashiers per shift rather than replacing them completely. Many retailers only staff a single cashiered lane with many self checkouts, for example.
doctorpangloss 3y ago
Why would you bother, when the demand for hamburgers that cost 2x as much is going to evaporate sooner than the robots get invented? Anyway, the restaurant & food business is complicated. Can or will McDonald's serve hard alcohol in a drive-thru? Will immigrant (illegal) labor even afford transportation to cities? If the answer is yes to both questions, then a $20 minimum wage won't matter.
johnnyworker 3y ago
That's just blackmail, like saying you have to legalize prostitution to reduce rape. No. You have to stop exploiting people or be eternally afraid of them, and eternally unable to look in the mirror. That's what needs doing.
deleted 3y ago
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deleted 3y ago
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by bhaney 3y ago

hotpotamus 3y ago

It doesn't appear that Flippy has taken off. I spent a bit of time in a fast food kitchen around 20 years ago and it was already pretty automated, but it seems like human hands are quite hard to beat.

bhaney 3y ago
Cooks seem harder to automate, but I'm seeing kiosks replace cashiers more and more lately.
- MrFoof 3y ago
  My local McDonald's just renovated with what I assume is their newest layout concept. The front counter has exactly two registers/terminals, of which even at a busy time (school out, so tons of teenagers packed into the place), only one was staffed. Very small ordering counter. On the other side of the area is a much larger pick up area with order status screens. There's only two electronic menu boards down from the previous four. Yet six total self-order kiosks (three double-sided), but the real expectation is people will just place the order with the phone via mobile ordering. After all, that's what most of the teenagers order did, in order to get their $0.50 Double Cheeseburger (with no additional purchase). Moreover, you can't see into the kitchen anymore at all. It was a solid wood-decorated wall behind the counter, clearly a "hallway" or partition behind that, of which behind that is likely the actual kitchen. They increased the space of the dining area somewhat as a result.
  - dmoy 3y ago
    > in order to get their $0.50 Double Cheeseburger I haven't been to McDonald's (in the US at least) in like 20 years. Double cheeseburgers are only $0.50?? After inflation that feels like it costs 25% of what I used to pay.
    - bhaney 3y ago
      It's a special offer for using the app, not the normal price
    - mathgeek 3y ago
      It’s a promotional offer to get folks using the app and hopefully turning on ads via notifications.
    - MrFoof 3y ago
      Absolutely not. As others have mentioned, in-app coupon. Haven't seen it recur since (this was a few weeks ago). Normal price of a Double Cheeseburger at that location is $3.89 ($4.13 with sales tax).
      - dmoy 3y ago
        Ah okay, that makes a lot more sense
- calmworm 3y ago
  I much prefer a kiosk or ordering on my phone… and I also rarely do a drive thru order. There is less chance of a mistake when I enter the order myself.
- CTDOCodebases 3y ago
  This was inevitable. As a human it’s hard to compete with a screen when the person who needs to interact with you has used them for as long as they can remember.
imchillyb 3y ago
> https://www.indianarrative.com/culture-news/watch-mcdonalds-rolls-out-its-first-ever-fully-automated-restaurant-with-no-humans-86975.html https://www.indianarrative.com/culture-news/watch-mcdonalds-... December of 2022, McDonald's installed its first fully automated restaurant in Texas. This concept is only about 1-2 years away from burning across the US like a wildfire.
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  Is there a video showing the internals of this "fully automated" restaurant? Are there robots in there fulfilling the orders or is it people?
  - MrFoof 3y ago
    Per other articles, the restaurant basically employs nearly as many employees as any normal store. The automation is for order taking and delivery (conveyor belt), not cooking. Basically it eliminates the human interaction component for customers, but humans are still doing all the cooking, assembly, and packaging. Think similar to a 1920s automat, but with mobile ordering and drive thru. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/23/mcdonalds-automated-workers-fort-worth-texas https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/23/mcdonalds-a...
    - hotpotamus 3y ago
      That's what I thought I recalled. Like, am I the only one who'd disappointed with the lack of real advancement in automation in this space in my lifetime? I do think the online/kiosk ordering systems are nice, but it doesn't seem like it moves the needle all that much. Also, for what fast food costs these days, I can go to a local sit-down restaurant with a friend, briefly talk with a waiter, and talk to the checkout lady for a minute because we're regulars there and have a very pleasant lunch. I don't exactly long for human interaction at McD's but if we're going to go full automated dystopia (or just pretend that we have by removing all human interaction from the process), then I think it could be a lot cheaper.

georgeburdell 3y ago

If McDonalds is any indication, they’re more interested in stuffing anti patterns and pop-up deals into the kiosk UI to make them meaningful replacements for cashiers

nirav72 3y ago
I think McDonald's already saw the writing on the wall in terms of lowering their labor cost. Where I live here in the South-eastern U.S, most McDonald's have moved to Kiosks or ordering via App. They started with 2 Kiosks shortly after the post-2020 labor shortage. Then they added 4 more kiosks to handle the morning and lunch time rush.
- Gigachad 3y ago
  Australia is so much further along with this. There are no humans taking orders at McDonalds and there haven't been for many years now. Most stores will have about 10 self serve kiosks.
toast0 3y ago
McDonalds doesn't automate away a whole position at once, just a bit here and there and soon enough you might be able to handle a rush with one less person, or handle off peak with one less person, or if you can't drop one person, one person has more time to make sure the store is clean and supplies are well stocked etc. The push to self-ordering via kiosk and mobile ordering isn't likely to be 100%, but the registers might be empty at times. The automated soda dispensers don't do all the work, but they reduce labor here and there. The thing to put ketchup and mustard on at the same time saves a step.

LAC-Tech 3y ago

I did a search, and 9% of Californias workforce are undocumented. So you're just likely to see a shift away from the de jure workforce to the de facto workforce, since the costs are lower.

ejb999 3y ago

Yep, $20/hr plus benefits means for a 168 hour per week worker, you (as an business owner) need to possibly pay as much as $285K per year to cover a single worker 24 hours per day - even if a robot cost a $1,000,000 it would pay for itself in less than 4 years...Elon Musk (and other robot manufacturers) thanks you for this law.

mensetmanusman 3y ago

That’s good for society when those technologies are scaled, things become more anti-fragile.

hellojesus 3y ago

It also means that anyone that can provide only $18/hour of economic value is now banned from working at a fast food restaurant.

aaomidi 3y ago
So, how are you gauging if someone is offering $18 or $20?
- hellojesus 3y ago
  Maybe you measure how many burgers they can make in an hour. Each burger sells for $x dollars. You've now quantified how much revenue that employee generates.
  - aaomidi 3y ago
    It is not common for these places to be running at maximum capacity constantly, so no that’s not really relevant here.
    - hellojesus 3y ago
      But it is. Because at some point I will have my labor at maximum capacity. And in all cases they need to produce enough over the duration of their shift to offset the cost of hiring them. Why would I employee two people to work at 50% capacity when I could just hire one? Why hire someone for two hours when I could hire someone else for one. Yes, there are some positions wherein I need someone there whether they're doing work or sitting around. But a business that can minimize costs can win customers so there will always be the need to measure widget output to justify the hire.
woodruffw 3y ago
That's not how wages work. Hourly wages aren't based on actual economic value; they're based on a complex of factors that make someone accept or leave a job (convenience, opportunity cost, bargaining power, prior experience, etc.). Fast food restaurants clearly realize more than $20/hr in economic value from their hourly employees in California, much like they do in Europe.

lefstathiou 3y ago

Of course it will. And don’t think the politicians don’t already know this. It’s all part of the plan. Next on the ballot is universal basic income for all who lost their jobs. Voters for life.

toomuchtodo 3y ago

Haven’t automated CEOs away yet, so I’m sure these folks are safe for now. CEOs are much more expensive and provide much less value arguably. No CEO has ever served me a meal, for example.

adrr 3y ago

Warehouse workers get paid around the same rates in California yet you don't see automated warehouses. You see things like some goods to person robots and automated sortation and with the big retailers like Amazon, they still throw labor at the issue. Industry has been trying to push automation with app based ordering(eg: starbucks) even before this change. https://www.indeed.com/q-amazon-warehouse-l-los-angeles,-ca-jobs.html?vjk=e009d03c5ab184e2 https://www.indeed.com/q-amazon-warehouse-l-los-angeles,-ca-...

jchonphoenix 3y ago
This is because humanoid robotics is a hard and unsolved problem. But it isn't for lack of trying. Order taking is a simple and very much solved problem. And kitchen robotics is more assembly line esque than warehousing.
brightball 3y ago
I wonder how many high school kids take warehouse jobs though?
- adrr 3y ago
  It was common for in the past for high schoolers to work manual labor. I worked on a farm during the summer in my youth for example. Teenage labor participation is at record lows. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300012 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300012
Izkata 3y ago
They may not be there yet, but Amazon at least is absolutely going towards full automation: https://techcrunch.com/2022/06/22/amazon-debuts-a-fully-autonomous-warehouse-robot/ https://techcrunch.com/2022/06/22/amazon-debuts-a-fully-auto...

deleted 3y ago

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paulpauper 3y ago

automation is expensive and hard to do at scale, and also prone to problems. It also does not replace humans. Self-checkout kiosks have been around for 15+ years but have not replaced cashiers. Many fast food places have self-ordering kiosks but this has not made employees obsolete.

mathgeek 3y ago
The reality and likely future lies in the middle. Kiosks reduce cashiers per shift rather than replacing them completely. Many retailers only staff a single cashiered lane with many self checkouts, for example.

doctorpangloss 3y ago

Why would you bother, when the demand for hamburgers that cost 2x as much is going to evaporate sooner than the robots get invented? Anyway, the restaurant & food business is complicated. Can or will McDonald's serve hard alcohol in a drive-thru? Will immigrant (illegal) labor even afford transportation to cities? If the answer is yes to both questions, then a $20 minimum wage won't matter.

johnnyworker 3y ago

That's just blackmail, like saying you have to legalize prostitution to reduce rape. No. You have to stop exploiting people or be eternally afraid of them, and eternally unable to look in the mirror. That's what needs doing.

deleted 3y ago

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deleted 3y ago

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