10 ms·

New California law raises minimum wage for fast food workers to $20 per hour

63 points by grecy 3y ago

gruez 3y ago
Why fast food workers specifically? I suppose their jobs is worse than a desk job, or even a retail job, but there are arguably far worse jobs out there (eg. delivery workers, landscapers, or agricultural workers). The article's explanation of "most of the often overlooked workforce are the primary earners for their low-income households" isn't really convincing. Delivery drivers or agricultural workers are probably even easier to overlook than someone you have face to face interaction with, and I don't see any reason why primary earners would prefer fast food jobs over other jobs.
- neilv 3y ago
  This later paragraph sounds relevant: > It also settles — for now, at least — a fight between labor and business groups over how to regulate the industry. In exchange for higher pay, labor unions have dropped their attempt to make fast food corporations liable for the misdeeds of their independent franchise operators in California, an action that could have upended the business model on which the industry is based. The industry, meanwhile, has agreed to pull a referendum related to worker wages off the 2024 ballot.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- mech765 3y ago
  If they raised the minimum wage for all workers, it would have a greater destabilizing effect, so they limited it to a smaller group so they could get their message across while minimizing the change they cause.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    It just so happens that that particular tribe of people has sufficient political power to push through an increase for themselves. See non English speaking farm workers that have their very own exclusions to minimum wage laws, even on the west coast. They just don’t happen to have the political power, so they get shafted. Fracturing your opposition is a tried and true method to break consensus. Edit: I find it hilarious that even in this tribal delineation, somehow people who work at a business that bakes things got screwed.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > raised the minimum wage for all workers, it would have a greater destabilizing effect Theory suggests this will happen at some point. Evidence shows we aren’t close to it. Raising the minimum wage—across the board—to $25/hour in non-rural counties and something lower in rural (where COL is lower) would likely cause growth. Because while costs have gone up, there is a massive purchasing power unleashed. (Critically, this could only be done after zoning reform. Otherwise the surplus will just go to landowners.)
  - TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
    Constantly raising and capturing profits has a far more destabilising effect. At some point this reality will become clear to US corporate culture. But it may well be rather late and very messy.
- akira2501 3y ago
  I'm guessing because Newsom would like his name on the presidential ticket next year and he's in the process of backroom political negotiations "necessary" to shore up that support. The specific mention of union negotiations bolsters this conclusion. This seems like a very shabby pitch to beleaguered American workers and encodes the sad expectation that people supporting a family of 4 should be doing so on a fast food job and now they can, temporarily, due to a wage hike in an election year. A boring dystopia, indeed.
  - tnel77 3y ago
    Why is it that people working <less good jobs> shouldn’t have families? Why does half the country have such a firm belief that the bottom tier of society has no place procreating?
    - dotnet00 3y ago
      Probably because typically jobs such as in fast food are seen as being for those too young to have a family, teenagers, college students etc.
      - nickthegreek 3y ago
        Is that the reality of the fast food labor force though? I don’t think it is. I see less kids working at fast food in my city than adults.
    - akira2501 3y ago
      I don't believe that at all. I just don't believe that minimum wage "hacks" like this are the correct tools to solve the problem. I think policy energy would be much better spent dealing with the over monopolization of our economy and in creating new industries for these people to own and to be employed by.
    - gmadsen 3y ago
      probably because there isn't much support for the collective subsidizing the very personal choice of procreating
- fdr 3y ago
  Mechanism might be interesting. It's a rudimentary sectoral bargaining arrangement https://onlabor.org/california-fast-food-workers-secure-big-win-in-compromise-deal/ https://onlabor.org/california-fast-food-workers-secure-big-... > Undeterred, labor advocates worked with progressive lawmakers to gather enough votes to pass two more significant pieces of labor legislation. First, AB 102, which was signed into law in July, increased funding for California’s Industrial Welfare Commission (IWC), a long-dormant century-old wage board with the power to set wages, hours, and working conditions by industry. Second, AB 1228, which would have made franchisors jointly liable for labor violations — a long sought-after provision that was taken out of the final version of the FAST Act. According to reports, Governor Newsom led negotiations between industry groups and unions over the summer, and with AB 1228 set to pass this week — the final week of California’s legislative session — industry groups finally caved, agreeing to withdraw the referendum in exchange for a rewritten AB 1228. > The new bill, which the legislature passed on Thursday, ditches joint franchisor liability entirely and officially repeals AB 257. (As part of the negotiations, legislators also agreed to defund the IWC.) But the bill largely keeps in place the Fast Food Council — with some important changes. First, the government representatives on the Council are reduced to nonvoting members, and the bill adds an independent member of the public who will serve as chairperson, presumably carrying a tiebreaking vote. The Council’s standards would apply to “limited-service” restaurants with over 60 establishments nationwide that share a common brand. But instead of promulgating standards with the force of law, the Council must now submit any standard to the Labor Commissioner, who, upon finding that it is consistent with the Council’s mandate, will then engage in a rulemaking process in accordance with California’s Administrative Procedure Act. > The bill would set the hourly wage for fast-food workers at $20 effective on April 1, 2024, and the Council may set wages annually thereafter beginning in 2025
bhaney 3y ago
I can't help but think that this is just going to accelerate efforts to automate fast food workers. Then once the technology works well enough to replace expensive labor in California, there'll be very little stopping it from spreading everywhere else, regardless of the minimum wage in other places.
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  It doesn't appear that Flippy has taken off. I spent a bit of time in a fast food kitchen around 20 years ago and it was already pretty automated, but it seems like human hands are quite hard to beat.
  - bhaney 3y ago
    Cooks seem harder to automate, but I'm seeing kiosks replace cashiers more and more lately.
    - MrFoof 3y ago
      My local McDonald's just renovated with what I assume is their newest layout concept. The front counter has exactly two registers/terminals, of which even at a busy time (school out, so tons of teenagers packed into the place), only one was staffed. Very small ordering counter. On the other side of the area is a much larger pick up area with order status screens. There's only two electronic menu boards down from the previous four. Yet six total self-order kiosks (three double-sided), but the real expectation is people will just place the order with the phone via mobile ordering. After all, that's what most of the teenagers order did, in order to get their $0.50 Double Cheeseburger (with no additional purchase). Moreover, you can't see into the kitchen anymore at all. It was a solid wood-decorated wall behind the counter, clearly a "hallway" or partition behind that, of which behind that is likely the actual kitchen. They increased the space of the dining area somewhat as a result.
      - dmoy 3y ago
        > in order to get their $0.50 Double Cheeseburger I haven't been to McDonald's (in the US at least) in like 20 years. Double cheeseburgers are only $0.50?? After inflation that feels like it costs 25% of what I used to pay.
pokstad 3y ago
So weird. So now a non-fast food entry level job needs to compete with a $20/hr fast food job? It’d be interesting to hear what economists think about how this arbitrary incentive will influence workers.
- edgyquant 3y ago
  The biggest losers will be teenagers trying to get their first job. Why would anyone hire that person when there will be adults with job experience applying for the same pay. People get triggered when you say these are jobs for kids, but some jobs do need to be for them so they can earn money in high school/college and have something on a resume to prove they showed up everyday.
  - digging 3y ago
    What? We really don't actually need high school kids working. Most don't.
    - paulpauper 3y ago
      agree. that seems like an outdated concept by 50 years. i would rather have employees with experience take those jobs than teens who do their job poorly
      - _yb2s 3y ago
        How are they supposed to become adults with experience, if they can't get jobs as teens? I worked a ton of jobs as a teenager, and started a few small businesses. I was highly motivated to prove myself against adults with the attitude you have, so I was working twice as hard and was making half the mistakes of my adult co-workers. I learned so much working as a teenager, and it was a really enjoyable experience to feel useful, and to have my own disposable income. Without it, my mental health would have been much worse.
        fzeroracer 3y ago
baggy_trough 3y ago
Crazy times. Hope everyone loves inflation and higher unemployment.
gdulli 3y ago
Good for them but inflation has already hit fast food hard enough that it no longer qualifies as cheap enough relative to other food options to be worth the lower quality.
lacker 3y ago
What a funny set of rules. The law has "an exception for restaurants that make and sell their own bread, like Panera Bread". Time for McDonalds to start making their own bread! The other weird thing is that Taco Bell has to pay $20/hour, but a random taqueria only has to pay $15.50/hour.
- bhb916 3y ago
  These laws are not made to be coherent or actually help people. They are made to curry favor with a particular base. It creates all these super strange situations where it's impossible to know what the rules will be. These nonsensical laws meant to target specific people and/or companies will be the norm going forward.
- tylersmith 3y ago
  I'm pretty sure McDonald's does already make the bread they sell wrapped around half their menu items.
- OkayPhysicist 3y ago
  Taco Bell vs taqueria does make sense, IMO. Smaller businesses have less economy of scale, and thus less ability to pay higher wages. Taco Bell, in contrast, has vastly larger scale, and thus the ability to pay workers more. Plus, it gives smaller, local businesses a potential leg up, fostering competition. The bread thing definitely reeks of corruption.
  - HEmanZ 3y ago
    Isn’t Taco Bell on a franchise model tho? So it’s basically a small business that pays royalties for advertising?
    - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
      Corporate also handles the logistics, aka, most any interaction with the larger economy besides wages.
  - 3y ago
jacamera 3y ago
> The new minimum wage for fast food workers will apply to restaurants with at least 60 locations nationwide, with an exception for restaurants that make and sell their own bread, like Panera Bread. The exception for small restaurants makes sense, but does anyone have any idea what the bread exception is all about? How many loaves a day does a restaurant have to make in order to qualify for the exemption?
- staringback 3y ago
  Big Bread corporate lobbying
- WirelessGigabit 3y ago
  Do you think McDo will now start to bring in their buns par-baked and finish it off in store?
hellojesus 3y ago
I've said it in a response and so have others, but it's really important to point out that: This law now makes it illegal for anyone that can only provide $19/hour of economic revenue from working at a fast food restaurant.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > This law now makes it illegal for anyone that can only provide $19/hour of economic revenue from working at a fast food restaurant. No, it doesn’t. It makes it less likely that they would be employed to, but there is no law against employing people at an economic loss, and employers often do this (though they don’t tend to continue doing it when they realize that they are; but that’s their choice, not a legal mandate.) The argument assumes (as naive economic arguments often do) perfect information on the part of all participants (particularly, that employers know both the maximum economic utility an employee will provide and the effect of wage on their productivity without error), which while a standard component of rational choice theory is also a component that is known not to match the real world at all, being wildly wrong for many purposes.
- doctorpangloss 3y ago
  I don't think this is the gotchya or insight porn you think it is. For starters it's nonsensical. Don't get me started with the jargon. "Economic revenue?" "Illegal?" While I don't think you deserve to get downvoted for such nonsense, because maybe it is interesting for someone to explore the premise of what you're actually saying, even if you are saying it extremely poorly, I am at least trying to explain for you personally why a normal person will read this and think, "What is this guy talking about?"
  - hellojesus 3y ago
    It's simple: a business hires a worker when that worker generates more revenue than they cost. So if I want to hire person A, but person A is only able to do work that would drive $18 in revenue for me, then I won't hire them at $20 because I will lose money. If I were to hire them at $18 I would at least be neutral, and maybe I could work to get their skills up to the point where they are delivering more than $18, and I am now positive. Maybe they do well enough for me to increase their pay over time. But I cannot do that with this new law. I'm banned from paying them $18. They simply will never work for me, or maybe anyone.
abtinf 3y ago
Why are they trying to get rid of fast food workers?
yasp 3y ago
Why not $100 per hour?
pc_edwin 3y ago
One of my fantasies is becoming elected president and creating a constitutional amendment against minimum wage. It is truly one of the most egregious and inhuman concoctions of modern collectivism. No government or king should have that kind of power over its people. You are dictating by fiat that there not be any jobs below a certain price/threshold. You are de-facto sentencing all the people below a certain IQ, skill, competence, age, experience etc to be permanently subjugated to government handouts or destitution. You are eliminating the concept of teenage labor and apprenticeships (almost) entirely. Why would I hire an inexperienced guy for a job if I have to pay him the same as a normal guy. Same goes for kids, why would I hire kids? This is used to be a crucial pillar of society. Not because the evil capitalist bakery could exploit kids or because they kids need the money. Its a crucial integration point. The idea that you completely shield kids from society until after college is a crime against humanity. Do you have any idea how important it is to be given responsibility, work hard and enjoy the fruits of your own labour at a very young age. Even I can't fully grasp the consequences of depriving this from our kids. This is just the beginning what about low iq people? I mean people that have IQs so low that they can't even pass the military test. Something like 5% of the population falls in this category. Should the be deprived of what ever dignity they have left and live the remainder of the lives as a federal benefactor. Same goes for a huge chunk of disabled people.. There are so many other examples I haven't even though of yet and thats exactly the problem with you collectivists. You guys think you have it all figured out and you can easily restructure the millennia old experiment of civilisation itself from the top down.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > One of my fantasies is becoming elected president and creating a constitutional amendment against minimum wage. The President is the single weakest elected official at the federal level (and weaker than many at the state level) in terms of a Constitutional amendment, having no role at all in proposing or ratifying them, so its a silly fantasy for reasons beyond the viability of such an amendment itself.
- hparadiz 3y ago
  Everything you just wrote is wrong and I'm only commenting to make you aware of that. Enjoy your downvotes.
HEmanZ 3y ago
Can anyone point me to any broad research or economic analysis that shows that minimum wage laws do anything to help those with low skill in the labor market? The economic consensus and data evidence I find is that it basically does nothing in the medium term, because the market just inflated to adjust, and pushes people out of the workforce or into the black market at the margins. I’m liberal enough to be open to the idea, but it seems like the least likely of left wing economic policies to actually improve the quality of life of low skill workers.
diggum 3y ago
Recently my son and I were at the mall and decided to grab dinner at a popular ramen spot. They had replaced the hostess with an iPad and a waitlist app. Ugh, I thought, but fine. I can type my name and the number 2 on an app just as easily as letting someone write it down. Except it wasn't as easy. The iPad first demanded that I make an account with the waitlist app service. I could do it on their iPad but it encouraged me to download an app on my own device instead. There was no “no thank you, just get me a table please” option. We noped out of there pretty quick and even avoided it the next visit to the mall. I don’t know what kind of money they’re saving by switching to this system, but they’ve definitely lost a $60/visit customer who would probably stop in 3-4x per year.

63 points by grecy 3y ago

Why fast food workers specifically? I suppose their jobs is worse than a desk job, or even a retail job, but there are arguably far worse jobs out there (eg. delivery workers, landscapers, or agricultural workers). The article's explanation of "most of the often overlooked workforce are the primary earners for their low-income households" isn't really convincing. Delivery drivers or agricultural workers are probably even easier to overlook than someone you have face to face interaction with, and I don't see any reason why primary earners would prefer fast food jobs over other jobs.

neilv 3y ago
This later paragraph sounds relevant: > It also settles — for now, at least — a fight between labor and business groups over how to regulate the industry. In exchange for higher pay, labor unions have dropped their attempt to make fast food corporations liable for the misdeeds of their independent franchise operators in California, an action that could have upended the business model on which the industry is based. The industry, meanwhile, has agreed to pull a referendum related to worker wages off the 2024 ballot.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mech765 3y ago
If they raised the minimum wage for all workers, it would have a greater destabilizing effect, so they limited it to a smaller group so they could get their message across while minimizing the change they cause.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  It just so happens that that particular tribe of people has sufficient political power to push through an increase for themselves. See non English speaking farm workers that have their very own exclusions to minimum wage laws, even on the west coast. They just don’t happen to have the political power, so they get shafted. Fracturing your opposition is a tried and true method to break consensus. Edit: I find it hilarious that even in this tribal delineation, somehow people who work at a business that bakes things got screwed.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > raised the minimum wage for all workers, it would have a greater destabilizing effect Theory suggests this will happen at some point. Evidence shows we aren’t close to it. Raising the minimum wage—across the board—to $25/hour in non-rural counties and something lower in rural (where COL is lower) would likely cause growth. Because while costs have gone up, there is a massive purchasing power unleashed. (Critically, this could only be done after zoning reform. Otherwise the surplus will just go to landowners.)
- TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
  Constantly raising and capturing profits has a far more destabilising effect. At some point this reality will become clear to US corporate culture. But it may well be rather late and very messy.
akira2501 3y ago
I'm guessing because Newsom would like his name on the presidential ticket next year and he's in the process of backroom political negotiations "necessary" to shore up that support. The specific mention of union negotiations bolsters this conclusion. This seems like a very shabby pitch to beleaguered American workers and encodes the sad expectation that people supporting a family of 4 should be doing so on a fast food job and now they can, temporarily, due to a wage hike in an election year. A boring dystopia, indeed.
- tnel77 3y ago
  Why is it that people working <less good jobs> shouldn’t have families? Why does half the country have such a firm belief that the bottom tier of society has no place procreating?
  - dotnet00 3y ago
    Probably because typically jobs such as in fast food are seen as being for those too young to have a family, teenagers, college students etc.
    - nickthegreek 3y ago
      Is that the reality of the fast food labor force though? I don’t think it is. I see less kids working at fast food in my city than adults.
  - akira2501 3y ago
    I don't believe that at all. I just don't believe that minimum wage "hacks" like this are the correct tools to solve the problem. I think policy energy would be much better spent dealing with the over monopolization of our economy and in creating new industries for these people to own and to be employed by.
  - gmadsen 3y ago
    probably because there isn't much support for the collective subsidizing the very personal choice of procreating
fdr 3y ago
Mechanism might be interesting. It's a rudimentary sectoral bargaining arrangement https://onlabor.org/california-fast-food-workers-secure-big-win-in-compromise-deal/ https://onlabor.org/california-fast-food-workers-secure-big-... > Undeterred, labor advocates worked with progressive lawmakers to gather enough votes to pass two more significant pieces of labor legislation. First, AB 102, which was signed into law in July, increased funding for California’s Industrial Welfare Commission (IWC), a long-dormant century-old wage board with the power to set wages, hours, and working conditions by industry. Second, AB 1228, which would have made franchisors jointly liable for labor violations — a long sought-after provision that was taken out of the final version of the FAST Act. According to reports, Governor Newsom led negotiations between industry groups and unions over the summer, and with AB 1228 set to pass this week — the final week of California’s legislative session — industry groups finally caved, agreeing to withdraw the referendum in exchange for a rewritten AB 1228. > The new bill, which the legislature passed on Thursday, ditches joint franchisor liability entirely and officially repeals AB 257. (As part of the negotiations, legislators also agreed to defund the IWC.) But the bill largely keeps in place the Fast Food Council — with some important changes. First, the government representatives on the Council are reduced to nonvoting members, and the bill adds an independent member of the public who will serve as chairperson, presumably carrying a tiebreaking vote. The Council’s standards would apply to “limited-service” restaurants with over 60 establishments nationwide that share a common brand. But instead of promulgating standards with the force of law, the Council must now submit any standard to the Labor Commissioner, who, upon finding that it is consistent with the Council’s mandate, will then engage in a rulemaking process in accordance with California’s Administrative Procedure Act. > The bill would set the hourly wage for fast-food workers at $20 effective on April 1, 2024, and the Council may set wages annually thereafter beginning in 2025

bhaney 3y ago

I can't help but think that this is just going to accelerate efforts to automate fast food workers. Then once the technology works well enough to replace expensive labor in California, there'll be very little stopping it from spreading everywhere else, regardless of the minimum wage in other places.

hotpotamus 3y ago
It doesn't appear that Flippy has taken off. I spent a bit of time in a fast food kitchen around 20 years ago and it was already pretty automated, but it seems like human hands are quite hard to beat.
- bhaney 3y ago
  Cooks seem harder to automate, but I'm seeing kiosks replace cashiers more and more lately.
  - MrFoof 3y ago
    My local McDonald's just renovated with what I assume is their newest layout concept. The front counter has exactly two registers/terminals, of which even at a busy time (school out, so tons of teenagers packed into the place), only one was staffed. Very small ordering counter. On the other side of the area is a much larger pick up area with order status screens. There's only two electronic menu boards down from the previous four. Yet six total self-order kiosks (three double-sided), but the real expectation is people will just place the order with the phone via mobile ordering. After all, that's what most of the teenagers order did, in order to get their $0.50 Double Cheeseburger (with no additional purchase). Moreover, you can't see into the kitchen anymore at all. It was a solid wood-decorated wall behind the counter, clearly a "hallway" or partition behind that, of which behind that is likely the actual kitchen. They increased the space of the dining area somewhat as a result.
    - dmoy 3y ago
      > in order to get their $0.50 Double Cheeseburger I haven't been to McDonald's (in the US at least) in like 20 years. Double cheeseburgers are only $0.50?? After inflation that feels like it costs 25% of what I used to pay.

pokstad 3y ago

So weird. So now a non-fast food entry level job needs to compete with a $20/hr fast food job? It’d be interesting to hear what economists think about how this arbitrary incentive will influence workers.

edgyquant 3y ago
The biggest losers will be teenagers trying to get their first job. Why would anyone hire that person when there will be adults with job experience applying for the same pay. People get triggered when you say these are jobs for kids, but some jobs do need to be for them so they can earn money in high school/college and have something on a resume to prove they showed up everyday.
- digging 3y ago
  What? We really don't actually need high school kids working. Most don't.
  - paulpauper 3y ago
    agree. that seems like an outdated concept by 50 years. i would rather have employees with experience take those jobs than teens who do their job poorly
    - _yb2s 3y ago
      How are they supposed to become adults with experience, if they can't get jobs as teens? I worked a ton of jobs as a teenager, and started a few small businesses. I was highly motivated to prove myself against adults with the attitude you have, so I was working twice as hard and was making half the mistakes of my adult co-workers. I learned so much working as a teenager, and it was a really enjoyable experience to feel useful, and to have my own disposable income. Without it, my mental health would have been much worse.
      - fzeroracer 3y ago

baggy_trough 3y ago

Crazy times. Hope everyone loves inflation and higher unemployment.

gdulli 3y ago

Good for them but inflation has already hit fast food hard enough that it no longer qualifies as cheap enough relative to other food options to be worth the lower quality.

lacker 3y ago

What a funny set of rules. The law has "an exception for restaurants that make and sell their own bread, like Panera Bread". Time for McDonalds to start making their own bread! The other weird thing is that Taco Bell has to pay $20/hour, but a random taqueria only has to pay $15.50/hour.

bhb916 3y ago
These laws are not made to be coherent or actually help people. They are made to curry favor with a particular base. It creates all these super strange situations where it's impossible to know what the rules will be. These nonsensical laws meant to target specific people and/or companies will be the norm going forward.
tylersmith 3y ago
I'm pretty sure McDonald's does already make the bread they sell wrapped around half their menu items.
OkayPhysicist 3y ago
Taco Bell vs taqueria does make sense, IMO. Smaller businesses have less economy of scale, and thus less ability to pay higher wages. Taco Bell, in contrast, has vastly larger scale, and thus the ability to pay workers more. Plus, it gives smaller, local businesses a potential leg up, fostering competition. The bread thing definitely reeks of corruption.
- HEmanZ 3y ago
  Isn’t Taco Bell on a franchise model tho? So it’s basically a small business that pays royalties for advertising?
  - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
    Corporate also handles the logistics, aka, most any interaction with the larger economy besides wages.
- 3y ago

jacamera 3y ago

> The new minimum wage for fast food workers will apply to restaurants with at least 60 locations nationwide, with an exception for restaurants that make and sell their own bread, like Panera Bread. The exception for small restaurants makes sense, but does anyone have any idea what the bread exception is all about? How many loaves a day does a restaurant have to make in order to qualify for the exemption?

staringback 3y ago
Big Bread corporate lobbying
WirelessGigabit 3y ago
Do you think McDo will now start to bring in their buns par-baked and finish it off in store?

hellojesus 3y ago

I've said it in a response and so have others, but it's really important to point out that: This law now makes it illegal for anyone that can only provide $19/hour of economic revenue from working at a fast food restaurant.

dragonwriter 3y ago
> This law now makes it illegal for anyone that can only provide $19/hour of economic revenue from working at a fast food restaurant. No, it doesn’t. It makes it less likely that they would be employed to, but there is no law against employing people at an economic loss, and employers often do this (though they don’t tend to continue doing it when they realize that they are; but that’s their choice, not a legal mandate.) The argument assumes (as naive economic arguments often do) perfect information on the part of all participants (particularly, that employers know both the maximum economic utility an employee will provide and the effect of wage on their productivity without error), which while a standard component of rational choice theory is also a component that is known not to match the real world at all, being wildly wrong for many purposes.
doctorpangloss 3y ago
I don't think this is the gotchya or insight porn you think it is. For starters it's nonsensical. Don't get me started with the jargon. "Economic revenue?" "Illegal?" While I don't think you deserve to get downvoted for such nonsense, because maybe it is interesting for someone to explore the premise of what you're actually saying, even if you are saying it extremely poorly, I am at least trying to explain for you personally why a normal person will read this and think, "What is this guy talking about?"
- hellojesus 3y ago
  It's simple: a business hires a worker when that worker generates more revenue than they cost. So if I want to hire person A, but person A is only able to do work that would drive $18 in revenue for me, then I won't hire them at $20 because I will lose money. If I were to hire them at $18 I would at least be neutral, and maybe I could work to get their skills up to the point where they are delivering more than $18, and I am now positive. Maybe they do well enough for me to increase their pay over time. But I cannot do that with this new law. I'm banned from paying them $18. They simply will never work for me, or maybe anyone.

abtinf 3y ago

Why are they trying to get rid of fast food workers?

yasp 3y ago

Why not $100 per hour?

pc_edwin 3y ago

One of my fantasies is becoming elected president and creating a constitutional amendment against minimum wage. It is truly one of the most egregious and inhuman concoctions of modern collectivism. No government or king should have that kind of power over its people. You are dictating by fiat that there not be any jobs below a certain price/threshold. You are de-facto sentencing all the people below a certain IQ, skill, competence, age, experience etc to be permanently subjugated to government handouts or destitution. You are eliminating the concept of teenage labor and apprenticeships (almost) entirely. Why would I hire an inexperienced guy for a job if I have to pay him the same as a normal guy. Same goes for kids, why would I hire kids? This is used to be a crucial pillar of society. Not because the evil capitalist bakery could exploit kids or because they kids need the money. Its a crucial integration point. The idea that you completely shield kids from society until after college is a crime against humanity. Do you have any idea how important it is to be given responsibility, work hard and enjoy the fruits of your own labour at a very young age. Even I can't fully grasp the consequences of depriving this from our kids. This is just the beginning what about low iq people? I mean people that have IQs so low that they can't even pass the military test. Something like 5% of the population falls in this category. Should the be deprived of what ever dignity they have left and live the remainder of the lives as a federal benefactor. Same goes for a huge chunk of disabled people.. There are so many other examples I haven't even though of yet and thats exactly the problem with you collectivists. You guys think you have it all figured out and you can easily restructure the millennia old experiment of civilisation itself from the top down.

dragonwriter 3y ago
> One of my fantasies is becoming elected president and creating a constitutional amendment against minimum wage. The President is the single weakest elected official at the federal level (and weaker than many at the state level) in terms of a Constitutional amendment, having no role at all in proposing or ratifying them, so its a silly fantasy for reasons beyond the viability of such an amendment itself.
hparadiz 3y ago
Everything you just wrote is wrong and I'm only commenting to make you aware of that. Enjoy your downvotes.

HEmanZ 3y ago

Can anyone point me to any broad research or economic analysis that shows that minimum wage laws do anything to help those with low skill in the labor market? The economic consensus and data evidence I find is that it basically does nothing in the medium term, because the market just inflated to adjust, and pushes people out of the workforce or into the black market at the margins. I’m liberal enough to be open to the idea, but it seems like the least likely of left wing economic policies to actually improve the quality of life of low skill workers.

diggum 3y ago

Recently my son and I were at the mall and decided to grab dinner at a popular ramen spot. They had replaced the hostess with an iPad and a waitlist app. Ugh, I thought, but fine. I can type my name and the number 2 on an app just as easily as letting someone write it down. Except it wasn't as easy. The iPad first demanded that I make an account with the waitlist app service. I could do it on their iPad but it encouraged me to download an app on my own device instead. There was no “no thank you, just get me a table please” option. We noped out of there pretty quick and even avoided it the next visit to the mall. I don’t know what kind of money they’re saving by switching to this system, but they’ve definitely lost a $60/visit customer who would probably stop in 3-4x per year.