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> amazing engineering Background updates are a built-in, supported, documented feature, widely employed by applications on the platform, and accessible to anyo

> amazing engineering Background updates are a built-in, supported, documented feature, widely employed by applications on the platform, and accessible to anyone that reads the two pages of documentation required to use them: “Pushing background updates to your App — Deliver notifications that wake your app and update it in the background.” https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/setting_up_a_remote_notification_server/pushing_background_updates_to_your_app https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/... edited for politeness

teaearlgraycold 3y ago
Why is that toxic?
- catiopatio 3y ago
  A cognitive filter that misrepresents reality is toxic.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - teaearlgraycold 3y ago
    That’s how all thought works.
tomrod 3y ago
I build AI/ML systems. I think delivering digital content through alternative pipes is amazing work. It has applicability far beyond simple aerospace wifi paywalls.
- catiopatio 3y ago
  > I build AI/ML systems. What’s the relevance? Push notifications aren’t some odd “alternative pipe” and conveying data via push notifications is a known and supported use-case.
mynameisvlad 3y ago
They're using push notifications in a novel way to provide the app the necessary information to update itself without needing to be connected to the full internet. That's quite a bit beyond "They're using push notifications" and no other app does that AFAIK. Almost all will use the push notification as a notification and trigger an update on app open which would fail.
- catiopatio 3y ago
  Tons of apps do that. It’s a built-in, supported use-case! It’s also the trivial, obvious approach to anyone who asks the question “how can I push data to the application when it’s not running.”
  - mynameisvlad 3y ago
    Give me one example, then. Of an app which uses a notification as an actual app data source and not just as a notification which opens the app. And which also updates the primary app view to reflect this new information. No other app has updated its app state based on the content of notifications. Slack/Discord/Teams et al (the ones that aren't allowed on free messaging plans) will show you previously cached messages and then an infinite spinner when you open it. Fastmail/Gmail/Outlook et al will show you existing emails but not load the new ones. Could other apps do this? Surely. Do they? No.
    - catiopatio 3y ago
      Slack/Discord/Teams? Those are desktop web applications hosted via Electron. Failing to leverage basic platform functionality is practically their telos. It’s a trivial, documented, supported, long-standing API for a common use-case. It is widely used, as documented, for its intended purpose. I cannot share information about specific applications.
      - constantly 3y ago
        No one is asking for a survey of apps that do this. You’re making the claim that it’s far from rare, so you have enough knowledge to make this claim. Share with us the smallest piece of your knowledge by naming one single other app that does this. It’s the least you can do since you’re making the claim. Please, I’m very curious!
turquoisevar 3y ago
I don’t know what you have against Flighty but you through considerable lengths in the thread below to spend time on letting everyone know how unimpressed you are about their efforts. Your lack of amazement is duly noted, I suggest you don’t waste any more time on it. That said, I, like others, are indeed impressed for a couple of reasons. For starters because of the simple fact that they’ve found a novel way to use background notifications to provide users without unrestricted internet access with flight updates. Contrary to what you imply, and subsequently fail to substantiate, there aren’t many, if any, other apps that use background notifications in such a novel way, certainly not in a way to circumvent restrictions and limitations on data connections. Moreover, I have never seen background notifications being used to push concrete data to apps. This is because there are severe payload size constraints on notifications, including background notifications. Typically when background notifications have been used, it simply contains an instruction to download data from a remote server, something that wouldn’t work on a limited connection. Instead, Flighty uses the minimal payload size to push the actual concrete data used by the app. Additionally there are some limitations in how often a background notification gets delivered to the tune of a few times per hour, worse yet, delivery of these notification is inconsistent because it’s beyond the app’s control of they get delivered at all. To account for this, Flighty will use the background notifications to update the data where it can and make estimations in times it cannot not until the next time it can receive an update. I’d go as far as call that amazing engineering. You might not and I don’t know your qualms with Flighty, but you’re doing a poor job of convincing people to see it your way.
- catiopatio 3y ago
  You’re right, I see that as embarrassingly trivial. This whole thread is inane — if using a simple API is “amazing engineering”, what do you call the actual amazing engineering you’re holding in your hand right now? I have nothing against Flighty — this has nothing to do with Flighty. Background notifications are trivial and all apps can and should be using them to solve this type of problem. It’s detrimental to have folks mistakenly operating under the belief that this is complex, unusual, or difficult. Sure, the payload size is limited, but it’s not impossibly small, and custom keys with arbitrary payload are explicitly and obviously documented as supported. Overly-effusive praise doesn’t do anyone any favors.

teaearlgraycold 3y ago

Why is that toxic?

catiopatio 3y ago
A cognitive filter that misrepresents reality is toxic.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- teaearlgraycold 3y ago
  That’s how all thought works.

tomrod 3y ago

I build AI/ML systems. I think delivering digital content through alternative pipes is amazing work. It has applicability far beyond simple aerospace wifi paywalls.

catiopatio 3y ago
> I build AI/ML systems. What’s the relevance? Push notifications aren’t some odd “alternative pipe” and conveying data via push notifications is a known and supported use-case.

mynameisvlad 3y ago

They're using push notifications in a novel way to provide the app the necessary information to update itself without needing to be connected to the full internet. That's quite a bit beyond "They're using push notifications" and no other app does that AFAIK. Almost all will use the push notification as a notification and trigger an update on app open which would fail.

catiopatio 3y ago
Tons of apps do that. It’s a built-in, supported use-case! It’s also the trivial, obvious approach to anyone who asks the question “how can I push data to the application when it’s not running.”
- mynameisvlad 3y ago
  Give me one example, then. Of an app which uses a notification as an actual app data source and not just as a notification which opens the app. And which also updates the primary app view to reflect this new information. No other app has updated its app state based on the content of notifications. Slack/Discord/Teams et al (the ones that aren't allowed on free messaging plans) will show you previously cached messages and then an infinite spinner when you open it. Fastmail/Gmail/Outlook et al will show you existing emails but not load the new ones. Could other apps do this? Surely. Do they? No.
  - catiopatio 3y ago
    Slack/Discord/Teams? Those are desktop web applications hosted via Electron. Failing to leverage basic platform functionality is practically their telos. It’s a trivial, documented, supported, long-standing API for a common use-case. It is widely used, as documented, for its intended purpose. I cannot share information about specific applications.
    - constantly 3y ago
      No one is asking for a survey of apps that do this. You’re making the claim that it’s far from rare, so you have enough knowledge to make this claim. Share with us the smallest piece of your knowledge by naming one single other app that does this. It’s the least you can do since you’re making the claim. Please, I’m very curious!

turquoisevar 3y ago

I don’t know what you have against Flighty but you through considerable lengths in the thread below to spend time on letting everyone know how unimpressed you are about their efforts. Your lack of amazement is duly noted, I suggest you don’t waste any more time on it. That said, I, like others, are indeed impressed for a couple of reasons. For starters because of the simple fact that they’ve found a novel way to use background notifications to provide users without unrestricted internet access with flight updates. Contrary to what you imply, and subsequently fail to substantiate, there aren’t many, if any, other apps that use background notifications in such a novel way, certainly not in a way to circumvent restrictions and limitations on data connections. Moreover, I have never seen background notifications being used to push concrete data to apps. This is because there are severe payload size constraints on notifications, including background notifications. Typically when background notifications have been used, it simply contains an instruction to download data from a remote server, something that wouldn’t work on a limited connection. Instead, Flighty uses the minimal payload size to push the actual concrete data used by the app. Additionally there are some limitations in how often a background notification gets delivered to the tune of a few times per hour, worse yet, delivery of these notification is inconsistent because it’s beyond the app’s control of they get delivered at all. To account for this, Flighty will use the background notifications to update the data where it can and make estimations in times it cannot not until the next time it can receive an update. I’d go as far as call that amazing engineering. You might not and I don’t know your qualms with Flighty, but you’re doing a poor job of convincing people to see it your way.

catiopatio 3y ago
You’re right, I see that as embarrassingly trivial. This whole thread is inane — if using a simple API is “amazing engineering”, what do you call the actual amazing engineering you’re holding in your hand right now? I have nothing against Flighty — this has nothing to do with Flighty. Background notifications are trivial and all apps can and should be using them to solve this type of problem. It’s detrimental to have folks mistakenly operating under the belief that this is complex, unusual, or difficult. Sure, the payload size is limited, but it’s not impossibly small, and custom keys with arbitrary payload are explicitly and obviously documented as supported. Overly-effusive praise doesn’t do anyone any favors.