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This is a common stereotype, but wholly inaccurate on both sides. We in the West are coming out of a long cultural period several centuries where that sort of a

This is a common stereotype, but wholly inaccurate on both sides. We in the West are coming out of a long cultural period several centuries where that sort of analytic, rational style has been particularly popular, so it's easy to mistakenly assume that it is representative of the entirety of Western philosophy. It's not. Likewise, we in the west are in a period when certain specific Eastern philosophies, notably Buddhism and Taoism, have become widely known and popular for the first time in the West. It's easy to mistakenly assume that they are representative of the entirety of Eastern philosophy. They're not. Western philosophy has a deep and broad mystical and esoteric tradition that routinely does what you describe as an essentially "eastern" practice. More recently, postmodernism discards all that analytic precision in favor of vague impressionistic primacy for one's personal experience, and has become by far the dominant philosophy in many parts of the west. Postmodernism was (according to its progenitor Martin Heidegger, who was incidentally a Nazi) explicitly and profoundly influenced by Taoism. Eastern philosophy, on the other hand, has its own well-developed "excruciating pedantic detail" traditions such as Legalism[1] (among others) that routinely do what you describe as an essentially "western" practice. They have been profoundly influential in Asian thought, yet they are not currently popular in the West, so we just don't think about them. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_(Chinese_philosophy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_(Chinese_philosophy)

morelisp 3y ago
I want to upvote this for its good points about the relationship between Eastern thought and "Eastern thought" in the "West", but man, what is this? > Postmodernism was (according to its progenitor Martin Heidegger...) explicitly and profoundly influenced by Taoism. - Heidegger as the "progenitor of postmodernism" is... contentious, at best. - Even if he was, he never defined "postmodernism" himself; mostly his critics associated him with it. - As far as I know he never explicitly said any particular program was influenced by Taoism (although he definitely was). I would even say this is a specific case of what you're criticizing, as that influence came from his dialogue with the Kyoto school, a syncretic form of Buddhism that itself (IMO somewhat tenuously) claimed it represented also Taoism.
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  Maybe just a German influence? The zeitgeist of the time? Schopenhauer and Nietzsche were both influenced by Buddhism. Think so was Kant, and Hume (Scottish). In general, during that time period, a lot of philosophers were discussing Buddhist ideas, don't think it is stretch that Heidegger had been 'influenced'.
  - morelisp 3y ago
    I'm explicitly not contesting that Heidegger was influenced by Taoism! I said "he definitely was". I'm contesting that you'll find a statement by Heidegger like "my work, as extended by postmodernism to which I also lay some intellectual claim, grows out of Taoism," which doesn't check out for at least those three major reasons.
    - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
      I think we are agreeing on Tao. And on postmodernism. I don't know enough to have an opinion. I asked GPT 4 and it seemed GPT 4 also agrees Heidegger was NOT a postmodernist. "No, Martin Heidegger was not considered a postmodernist. He was a German philosopher who is generally associated with phenomenology and existentialism, and he is best known for his work "Being and Time" ("Sein und Zeit"), published in 1927. His philosophical work laid some of the groundwork for postmodern thought, but he himself belonged to an earlier philosophical period. Postmodernism as a philosophical movement didn’t emerge until after World War II, and it is characterized by skepticism toward grand narratives, doubt about objective reality, and a focus on the relative and the subjective. Heidegger's work, particularly his exploration of "being," language, and hermeneutics, influenced many postmodern thinkers, such as Jacques Derrida and Jean-François Lyotard, but he was not himself a postmodernist. Heidegger’s own philosophy is complex and cannot be easily categorized. It includes elements of existentialism, hermeneutics (the theory and methodology of interpretation), and phenomenology (the study of structures of consciousness as experienced from the first-person point of view)."
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
That is correct. You are very correct with this. I was using the 'common' understanding. I was really surprised how much of Descartes and Leibniz were really about religious arguments. Completely about mystical metaphysical ideas. Surprised because I thought Western Philosophy would be all 'sciencey' and about logic. But really it all had a lot of religious reasoning in it. And then also surprised that in India, with Buddhism, with Nagarjuna, extreme analytical logical arguments. There were centuries of extreme logical arguments. So guess, if you try to make a quick summary on the internet, it will be wrong. Because if you go back over the centuries, at some point in time everything was done before by everyone else. Everyone went through similar phases at some point.
akomtu 3y ago
"Marrying" the eastern and the western mindsets is a big, maybe even the biggest, goal of this age. There is a saying that, freely translated, means "the east is where the wisdom was born, the west is where it will assume a definite shape."

morelisp 3y ago

I want to upvote this for its good points about the relationship between Eastern thought and "Eastern thought" in the "West", but man, what is this? > Postmodernism was (according to its progenitor Martin Heidegger...) explicitly and profoundly influenced by Taoism. - Heidegger as the "progenitor of postmodernism" is... contentious, at best. - Even if he was, he never defined "postmodernism" himself; mostly his critics associated him with it. - As far as I know he never explicitly said any particular program was influenced by Taoism (although he definitely was). I would even say this is a specific case of what you're criticizing, as that influence came from his dialogue with the Kyoto school, a syncretic form of Buddhism that itself (IMO somewhat tenuously) claimed it represented also Taoism.

FrustratedMonky 3y ago
Maybe just a German influence? The zeitgeist of the time? Schopenhauer and Nietzsche were both influenced by Buddhism. Think so was Kant, and Hume (Scottish). In general, during that time period, a lot of philosophers were discussing Buddhist ideas, don't think it is stretch that Heidegger had been 'influenced'.
- morelisp 3y ago
  I'm explicitly not contesting that Heidegger was influenced by Taoism! I said "he definitely was". I'm contesting that you'll find a statement by Heidegger like "my work, as extended by postmodernism to which I also lay some intellectual claim, grows out of Taoism," which doesn't check out for at least those three major reasons.
  - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
    I think we are agreeing on Tao. And on postmodernism. I don't know enough to have an opinion. I asked GPT 4 and it seemed GPT 4 also agrees Heidegger was NOT a postmodernist. "No, Martin Heidegger was not considered a postmodernist. He was a German philosopher who is generally associated with phenomenology and existentialism, and he is best known for his work "Being and Time" ("Sein und Zeit"), published in 1927. His philosophical work laid some of the groundwork for postmodern thought, but he himself belonged to an earlier philosophical period. Postmodernism as a philosophical movement didn’t emerge until after World War II, and it is characterized by skepticism toward grand narratives, doubt about objective reality, and a focus on the relative and the subjective. Heidegger's work, particularly his exploration of "being," language, and hermeneutics, influenced many postmodern thinkers, such as Jacques Derrida and Jean-François Lyotard, but he was not himself a postmodernist. Heidegger’s own philosophy is complex and cannot be easily categorized. It includes elements of existentialism, hermeneutics (the theory and methodology of interpretation), and phenomenology (the study of structures of consciousness as experienced from the first-person point of view)."

FrustratedMonky 3y ago

That is correct. You are very correct with this. I was using the 'common' understanding. I was really surprised how much of Descartes and Leibniz were really about religious arguments. Completely about mystical metaphysical ideas. Surprised because I thought Western Philosophy would be all 'sciencey' and about logic. But really it all had a lot of religious reasoning in it. And then also surprised that in India, with Buddhism, with Nagarjuna, extreme analytical logical arguments. There were centuries of extreme logical arguments. So guess, if you try to make a quick summary on the internet, it will be wrong. Because if you go back over the centuries, at some point in time everything was done before by everyone else. Everyone went through similar phases at some point.

akomtu 3y ago

"Marrying" the eastern and the western mindsets is a big, maybe even the biggest, goal of this age. There is a saying that, freely translated, means "the east is where the wisdom was born, the west is where it will assume a definite shape."