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There's a survey done by Equality labs which is fundamental to this law and the one in Seattle city. Other scholars have argued[0] that this survey is flawed in

by hdesh 3y ago

There's a survey done by Equality labs which is fundamental to this law and the one in Seattle city. Other scholars have argued[0] that this survey is flawed in many ways. There was a case against Cisco systems for alleged caste-based discrimination, which also was often mentioned in such coverage in the past. It is noteworthy that the case was dropped. More details with legalese is here[1] and a piece by Hindu America Foundation (that opposes such bills) is here[2]. Not to say that caste is not an issue among Indians (in India), however using this survey as the ultimate truth and a source for creating laws does not seem wise. [0] https://carnegieendowment.org/2021/06/09/social-realities-of-indian-americans-results-from-2020-indian-american-attitudes-survey-pub-84667 https://carnegieendowment.org/2021/06/09/social-realities-of... [1] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u0jxQY_cLti2XP3nEw0d9OBanbKEwEhMB3Yqj05rQvc/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u0jxQY_cLti2XP3nEw0d9OBa... [2] https://theprint.in/opinion/dismissal-of-cisco-case-proves-engineers-were-targetted-because-they-were-hindu-brahmin/1532070/ https://theprint.in/opinion/dismissal-of-cisco-case-proves-e...

desi_ninja 3y ago
There is nothing uniquely different about caste discrimination than Shia/Sunni divide among Muslims or Han Chinese/non. If you goto Africa, similar fault lines are there. It is social evil which is at verge of extinction in a generation or two, unless provided oxygen by these laws. There isn't a widespread precedence for a law which uniquely targets Indians and them asked to prove their non-caste behaviour. Current anti discrimination laws are good. Still these laws keep getting passed. This is witch hunting. https://www.hinduamerican.org/all-about-caste https://www.hinduamerican.org/all-about-caste
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- logicchains 3y ago
  >There is nothing uniquely different about caste discrimination than Shia/Sunni divide among Muslims or Han Chinese/non Shia/Sunni discriminating against each other is religious discrimination, which is banned in the US. Han Chinese discriminating against non-Han is racial discrimination, which is banned in the US. Indians discriminating against other Indians based on cast is not banned, if they share the same race and religion. The new law aims to remedy this gap.
  - Slava_Propanei 3y ago
    [dead]
- jandrese 3y ago
  > It is social evil which is at verge of extinction in a generation or two Historically this sort of discrimination is incredibly sticky whenever it appears. People teach their kids and their kids teach their kids and so on. Then their neighbors, media, etc... reinforce the stereotypes with stories about said groups. It's incredibly difficult to stamp out because it is so self-reinforcing.
- EliRivers 3y ago
  It is social evil which is at verge of extinction in a generation or two, unless provided oxygen by these laws. I see no reasonable way that a law saying caste-discrimination isn't ok will cause people to start discriminating by caste. I think that's utter nonsense and you're going to have to provide some kind of evidence for such an outlandish assertion.
uhhhhhhh 3y ago
I can't see any negative outcomes from legally preventing discrimination by caste. Either it doesn't happen/doesn't happen enough for a law so this is most effectively virtue signalling without any negative outcomes. Or it does happen and this can help take steps against it. There is no situation that allowing discrimination by caste to continue is a benefit to anyone other than those that are at the top of the caste system. That is inherently against western social views and anthema to equality.
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  > There is no situation that allowing discrimination by caste to continue is a benefit to anyone other than those that are at the top of the caste system. That is inherently against western social views and anthema to equality. This. The US is not here for you to reproduce your oppressive hierarchy from the old country, no matter what hierarchy it was or what country it was from.
  - rramadass 3y ago
    An admirable sentiment but essentially useless in solving a problem which is actually more complicated and nuanced than a superficial reading might lead one to believe. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37692617 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37692617 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37691774 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37691774
- rramadass 3y ago
  >I can't see any negative outcomes from legally preventing discrimination by caste. From the article; Suhag Shukla, the executive director of advocacy group Hindu American Foundation, said that the bill would give California businesses a “license to discriminate against South Asians”. The group has lobbied against the bill, saying its passage would trigger a rise in Hinduphobia. It is a very nuanced problem fanned by vested interests and hence passing a blanket bill without understanding the issues involved can actually do more harm than good. See https://www.firstpost.com/opinion/a-discriminatory-affair-how-dalit-advocacy-group-equality-labs-portrays-hindu-religion-as-irredeemable-in-us-12440202.html https://www.firstpost.com/opinion/a-discriminatory-affair-ho... There have been many articles submitted previously on this subject. You might want to study the reports done by Carnegie Endowment on Indian-Americans listed in my previous comment here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37333418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37333418
xxpor 3y ago
From the google doc link: >There has been no ruling yet on whether any form of caste-based discrimination or harassment had in fact occurred.
rramadass 3y ago
The fact that this comment is downvoted says a lot about the cluelessness/agenda of some of the people here. The listed links to articles give the actual data which helps one to make an informed decision if one would but read them.

by hdesh 3y ago

desi_ninja 3y ago

There is nothing uniquely different about caste discrimination than Shia/Sunni divide among Muslims or Han Chinese/non. If you goto Africa, similar fault lines are there. It is social evil which is at verge of extinction in a generation or two, unless provided oxygen by these laws. There isn't a widespread precedence for a law which uniquely targets Indians and them asked to prove their non-caste behaviour. Current anti discrimination laws are good. Still these laws keep getting passed. This is witch hunting. https://www.hinduamerican.org/all-about-caste https://www.hinduamerican.org/all-about-caste

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
logicchains 3y ago
>There is nothing uniquely different about caste discrimination than Shia/Sunni divide among Muslims or Han Chinese/non Shia/Sunni discriminating against each other is religious discrimination, which is banned in the US. Han Chinese discriminating against non-Han is racial discrimination, which is banned in the US. Indians discriminating against other Indians based on cast is not banned, if they share the same race and religion. The new law aims to remedy this gap.
- Slava_Propanei 3y ago
  [dead]
jandrese 3y ago
> It is social evil which is at verge of extinction in a generation or two Historically this sort of discrimination is incredibly sticky whenever it appears. People teach their kids and their kids teach their kids and so on. Then their neighbors, media, etc... reinforce the stereotypes with stories about said groups. It's incredibly difficult to stamp out because it is so self-reinforcing.
EliRivers 3y ago
It is social evil which is at verge of extinction in a generation or two, unless provided oxygen by these laws. I see no reasonable way that a law saying caste-discrimination isn't ok will cause people to start discriminating by caste. I think that's utter nonsense and you're going to have to provide some kind of evidence for such an outlandish assertion.

uhhhhhhh 3y ago

I can't see any negative outcomes from legally preventing discrimination by caste. Either it doesn't happen/doesn't happen enough for a law so this is most effectively virtue signalling without any negative outcomes. Or it does happen and this can help take steps against it. There is no situation that allowing discrimination by caste to continue is a benefit to anyone other than those that are at the top of the caste system. That is inherently against western social views and anthema to equality.

AnimalMuppet 3y ago
> There is no situation that allowing discrimination by caste to continue is a benefit to anyone other than those that are at the top of the caste system. That is inherently against western social views and anthema to equality. This. The US is not here for you to reproduce your oppressive hierarchy from the old country, no matter what hierarchy it was or what country it was from.
- rramadass 3y ago
  An admirable sentiment but essentially useless in solving a problem which is actually more complicated and nuanced than a superficial reading might lead one to believe. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37692617 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37692617 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37691774 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37691774
rramadass 3y ago
>I can't see any negative outcomes from legally preventing discrimination by caste. From the article; Suhag Shukla, the executive director of advocacy group Hindu American Foundation, said that the bill would give California businesses a “license to discriminate against South Asians”. The group has lobbied against the bill, saying its passage would trigger a rise in Hinduphobia. It is a very nuanced problem fanned by vested interests and hence passing a blanket bill without understanding the issues involved can actually do more harm than good. See https://www.firstpost.com/opinion/a-discriminatory-affair-how-dalit-advocacy-group-equality-labs-portrays-hindu-religion-as-irredeemable-in-us-12440202.html https://www.firstpost.com/opinion/a-discriminatory-affair-ho... There have been many articles submitted previously on this subject. You might want to study the reports done by Carnegie Endowment on Indian-Americans listed in my previous comment here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37333418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37333418

xxpor 3y ago

From the google doc link: >There has been no ruling yet on whether any form of caste-based discrimination or harassment had in fact occurred.

rramadass 3y ago

The fact that this comment is downvoted says a lot about the cluelessness/agenda of some of the people here. The listed links to articles give the actual data which helps one to make an informed decision if one would but read them.