4 ms·

in the workplace? definitely

by namdnay 3y ago

deaddodo 3y ago
Well, you're wrong. No matter how you'd like to downvote me.
- sceaux 3y ago
  Could you maybe provide an actual argument? I am german and legitimately not sure. Maybe share the Californian perspective?
- namdnay 3y ago
  what contracts are the california workers on? someone who can be fired at any moment is not going to report a minor injury..
  - deaddodo 3y ago
    No, but they will certainly sue Tesla for copious sums of money via civil suits and worker's comp; if the company is operating unlawfully and at cause for their injury. The perpetual "at will is abusive by design" argument doesn't apply to a) Good Faith covenant states and b) places where the reward for abuse far outweighs a continued employment.
- malermeister 3y ago
  Since you're making a pretty counterintuitive claim, do you have anything to back it up?
  - deaddodo 3y ago
    It's only counterintuitive if you assume that Germans are innately more safe than other people. I've lived and worked in both places, I can assure you that the standards are pretty similar. The main difference being that issues in California are generally handled via civil suit, while Germany handles them through a government board. You're welcome to compare Cal/OSHA regulations: https://www.dir.ca.gov/dosh/dosh_publications/trainingreq.htm https://www.dir.ca.gov/dosh/dosh_publications/trainingreq.ht... To BMAS regulations (and Bundesländer extensions) and try to find something they do to an amazingly higher standard, however.
    - Lewton 3y ago
      > The main difference being that issues in California are generally handled via civil suit, while Germany handles them through a government board. That sounds like a pretty big difference, and not one that favours california. Having to lawyer up is a big barrier?
      - ilikehurdles 3y ago
        And do you think this changes safety standards, which was this the original claim? It may change reporting standards, but whether one workplace is safer than the other probably depends on the perceived risk to the company in either place. Is it costlier to have American lawyers sniffing for blood in your factory, or the German bureaucracy processing reports for paper cuts and lost limbs alike? I’m not making a claim one way or another, just that more info is needed in this conversation.
        cf141q5325 3y ago
        In Germany many technical jobs entail personal liability, so the lever is against the individuals, not against the company. As such pressuring people into skipping safety standards is a no go. You risk prison time and painful fines the company cant officially help with.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - deaddodo 3y ago
        Well, that has no effect on the standards themself, just the onus of execution. So it's a moot point. That being said the government will step in when things are obviously non-conforming, if you'd rather just report them. Which is the case for Tesla. As to your latter point, labor suits are pretty heavily in favor of the worker and it's not hard to find a lawyer who will take a case on concession. Fees are also capped, delayed to completion and generally on the losing party to cover. So "the barrier" is as low as you want to consider the solidity of the case. Considering worker's comp and civil suit structuring are the two pieces of legislation that are most heavily attacked by corporations in California, I wouldn't consider them ineffective; it's certainly a matter of perspective, however.
- ilikehurdles 3y ago
  These people don’t know Germans drink beer by lunch time. My father worked at a lumber yard in Baden-Württemberg for a short time, and German coworkers pulled out cases of beer they brought for lunch. From what I can tell this remains a normal occurrence.
  - cf141q5325 3y ago
    Pretty sure that is heavily outdated. My grandfather had such reports from building sites (Tiler / bricklayer pre 2000), those now have to wait till after work if i am not mistaken. In case you are talking heavy machinery in the lumber yard, alcohol is a no go there now. School friend of mine lost his apprenticeship due to liver problems ~ 15 years ago. It was considered too dangerous to have him work with saws as it couldnt be ruled out that he could pass out and fall into one. Relative of mine also lost his job as a truck driver due to substance abuse despite it not reaching the threshold for loosing his driver license. This is not to say there arent deadly accidents in Germany. Friend of mine builds electrical substations and the company has regular (deadly) high voltage accidents. Roughly one or two a year since he has been there (not on his site but across all projects of the company). Sadly often unskilled laborers that didnt understand the safety instructions due to language barriers. So falling through grids covering open high voltage or digging up a line. Since it has been mentioned elsewhere that the threat of lawyers is higher in the US, in Germany you are personally liable in many industries. So those dead workers lead to criminal investigations into the people in charge which can mean years in prison and fines. Technically the company is banned from helping with the fines but there seem to be some bonus payments happening if your company isnt a complete shit. Its still not something you risk as it means you will have a few horrible years in front of you even if you end up being cleared. Edit: That liability, which also covers shortcomings during the build process discovered later is the reason he is currently looking for another job.
    - deaddodo 3y ago
      > Since it has been mentioned elsewhere that the threat of lawyers is higher in the US, in Germany you are personally liable in many industries. So those dead workers lead to criminal investigations into the people in charge which can mean years in prison and fines. Don't know where you got the idea it's different in California. What do you think happens if you negligently lead to deaths? It's as criminal in California to negligently kill your employees as it is in Germany. It's not some lawless land of corporate freedom. The original post specifically mentioned that the government sanctioned and fined the company to curtail their abuses, they just didn't lead to any directly attributable deaths.

in the workplace? definitely

deaddodo 3y ago

Well, you're wrong. No matter how you'd like to downvote me.

sceaux 3y ago
Could you maybe provide an actual argument? I am german and legitimately not sure. Maybe share the Californian perspective?
namdnay 3y ago
what contracts are the california workers on? someone who can be fired at any moment is not going to report a minor injury..
- deaddodo 3y ago
  No, but they will certainly sue Tesla for copious sums of money via civil suits and worker's comp; if the company is operating unlawfully and at cause for their injury. The perpetual "at will is abusive by design" argument doesn't apply to a) Good Faith covenant states and b) places where the reward for abuse far outweighs a continued employment.
malermeister 3y ago
Since you're making a pretty counterintuitive claim, do you have anything to back it up?
- deaddodo 3y ago
  It's only counterintuitive if you assume that Germans are innately more safe than other people. I've lived and worked in both places, I can assure you that the standards are pretty similar. The main difference being that issues in California are generally handled via civil suit, while Germany handles them through a government board. You're welcome to compare Cal/OSHA regulations: https://www.dir.ca.gov/dosh/dosh_publications/trainingreq.htm https://www.dir.ca.gov/dosh/dosh_publications/trainingreq.ht... To BMAS regulations (and Bundesländer extensions) and try to find something they do to an amazingly higher standard, however.
  - Lewton 3y ago
    > The main difference being that issues in California are generally handled via civil suit, while Germany handles them through a government board. That sounds like a pretty big difference, and not one that favours california. Having to lawyer up is a big barrier?
    - ilikehurdles 3y ago
      And do you think this changes safety standards, which was this the original claim? It may change reporting standards, but whether one workplace is safer than the other probably depends on the perceived risk to the company in either place. Is it costlier to have American lawyers sniffing for blood in your factory, or the German bureaucracy processing reports for paper cuts and lost limbs alike? I’m not making a claim one way or another, just that more info is needed in this conversation.
      - cf141q5325 3y ago
        In Germany many technical jobs entail personal liability, so the lever is against the individuals, not against the company. As such pressuring people into skipping safety standards is a no go. You risk prison time and painful fines the company cant officially help with.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - deaddodo 3y ago
      Well, that has no effect on the standards themself, just the onus of execution. So it's a moot point. That being said the government will step in when things are obviously non-conforming, if you'd rather just report them. Which is the case for Tesla. As to your latter point, labor suits are pretty heavily in favor of the worker and it's not hard to find a lawyer who will take a case on concession. Fees are also capped, delayed to completion and generally on the losing party to cover. So "the barrier" is as low as you want to consider the solidity of the case. Considering worker's comp and civil suit structuring are the two pieces of legislation that are most heavily attacked by corporations in California, I wouldn't consider them ineffective; it's certainly a matter of perspective, however.
ilikehurdles 3y ago
These people don’t know Germans drink beer by lunch time. My father worked at a lumber yard in Baden-Württemberg for a short time, and German coworkers pulled out cases of beer they brought for lunch. From what I can tell this remains a normal occurrence.
- cf141q5325 3y ago
  Pretty sure that is heavily outdated. My grandfather had such reports from building sites (Tiler / bricklayer pre 2000), those now have to wait till after work if i am not mistaken. In case you are talking heavy machinery in the lumber yard, alcohol is a no go there now. School friend of mine lost his apprenticeship due to liver problems ~ 15 years ago. It was considered too dangerous to have him work with saws as it couldnt be ruled out that he could pass out and fall into one. Relative of mine also lost his job as a truck driver due to substance abuse despite it not reaching the threshold for loosing his driver license. This is not to say there arent deadly accidents in Germany. Friend of mine builds electrical substations and the company has regular (deadly) high voltage accidents. Roughly one or two a year since he has been there (not on his site but across all projects of the company). Sadly often unskilled laborers that didnt understand the safety instructions due to language barriers. So falling through grids covering open high voltage or digging up a line. Since it has been mentioned elsewhere that the threat of lawyers is higher in the US, in Germany you are personally liable in many industries. So those dead workers lead to criminal investigations into the people in charge which can mean years in prison and fines. Technically the company is banned from helping with the fines but there seem to be some bonus payments happening if your company isnt a complete shit. Its still not something you risk as it means you will have a few horrible years in front of you even if you end up being cleared. Edit: That liability, which also covers shortcomings during the build process discovered later is the reason he is currently looking for another job.
  - deaddodo 3y ago
    > Since it has been mentioned elsewhere that the threat of lawyers is higher in the US, in Germany you are personally liable in many industries. So those dead workers lead to criminal investigations into the people in charge which can mean years in prison and fines. Don't know where you got the idea it's different in California. What do you think happens if you negligently lead to deaths? It's as criminal in California to negligently kill your employees as it is in Germany. It's not some lawless land of corporate freedom. The original post specifically mentioned that the government sanctioned and fined the company to curtail their abuses, they just didn't lead to any directly attributable deaths.