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I don't get how it is allowed that C-Suits just are allowed to blatantly lie to their investors/board/users they have the data and they know it won't happen. Ex

I don't get how it is allowed that C-Suits just are allowed to blatantly lie to their investors/board/users they have the data and they know it won't happen. Exactly how Musks knows FSD won't happen this year...

alsodumb 3y ago
To investors and board? I don't think they really care as long as Tesla makes them money which it is. To users, it doesn't matter unless sometimes sues them. And I'm pretty sure there is some terms and services clause that makes it non trivial to sue. But also, how is FSD/Tesla relevant to an article on X? Just because it's the same CEO?
- manicennui 3y ago
  I think the point is that Musk has proven that he can't be fully trusted.
Zambyte 3y ago
Well, they did say "should" (opinion) rather than "will" (prediction of fact)
toomuchtodo 3y ago
Lying to users about performance is covered under free speech. It's securities fraud if Musk is knowingly lying to those with an interest in X, even if a private company. Necessary components are standing ("I own a piece of X"), appetite to litigate, and evidence the statement was knowingly untrue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securities_Exchange_Act_of_1934 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securities_Exchange_Act_of_193... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Securities_Litigation_Reform_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Securities_Litigation_...
- sschueller 3y ago
  Didn't workout for Nikola. Their trunk didn't work when it was presented but I could say the same thing to the solar roof installation Elon presented.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Nikola's fraud was blatant [1]. They rolled a truck down a hill, and the internal emails were damning. Trying in good faith (solar shingles) and failing isn't fraud, that's just a failed business venture. Solyndra failed too. Fraud? No, just bad business. I can understand that Musk attempts to bend reality to juice the chances of success. I don't condone it personally, but I understand it [2]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/14/business/trevor-milton-nikola-fraud.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/14/business/trevor-milton-ni... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37668438 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37668438
  - ssgodderidge 3y ago
    Nikola was also public, and therefore had a higher level of regulatory scrutiny.
- ssgodderidge 3y ago
  The key there is "knowingly." For those who want to litigate, proving that he's lying is incredibly difficult. You would need some kind of internal message from Musk directly saying that "X will not be profitable in 2024" right before he posted. I doubt anyone will actually sue him over this.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
    Isn't that redundant? You can't unknowingly lie. To lie is to say something that you know isn't true.
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      > To lie is to say something that you know isn't true. There's lying by omission; no falsehoods, but important bits left out.
  - thrill 3y ago
    There's also "should have known", aka fiduciary duty.
- tsimionescu 3y ago
  Lying to users about your product is illegal under false advertising laws. Now, proving that in court is a lot easier said than done.
- bdcravens 3y ago
  Perhaps she is merely a figurehead, but this was the CEO, not Musk, making these statements. "X Corp. Chief Executive Linda Yaccarino said on Wednesday..."
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Is she an officer of the company?
influx 3y ago
Who are the investors? Musk bought them out.
- tsimionescu 3y ago
  There are still plenty of investors, such as the Saudi royal family. Musk isn't the sole owner of Twitter, some of the old investors agreed to remain co-owners with him in the buyout.
- bdcravens 3y ago
  Musk took on debt to fund the purchase. Vanguard Group, Morgan Stanley, BlackRock, and State Street all are part of the ownership group.
  - rchaud 3y ago
    They're not owners, they're creditors. They receive interest payments, not dividends.
brandonagr2 3y ago
What do you mean FSD won't happen? I used FSD in my car this morning to drive to work
- Simulacra 3y ago
  My office is 7.1 miles away and I go FSD there and back. Perhaps it's where I live is conducive to functional operation, but it works. Perhaps the difference is that unlike a lot of people who try FSD, I keep my eyes on the road and not watching something like Harry Potter
- Zetobal 3y ago
  FSD won't happen except under more than ideal conditions. Greetings from snowy Sweden.
rchaud 3y ago
The board is just Musk, he fired everybody else. The investors are Musk, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Binance, Andreessen Horowitz, Sequoia and some others. Imaginary profits shouldn't be an issue for this group, the value of their holdings lies elsewhere. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/12/24/elon-musk-twitter-funders/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/12/24/elon-mu...
rsynnott 3y ago
> I don't get how it is allowed that C-Suits just are allowed to blatantly lie to their investors/board/users they have the data and they know it won't happen This is _why_ many jurisdictions, including the US, have some concept of 'qualified/accredited' investor, and investment in private companies is somewhat restricted to people who are presumed to know what they're doing. CEOs of _public_ companies absolutely cannot lie about financials, but it's murkier for private companies.

alsodumb 3y ago

To investors and board? I don't think they really care as long as Tesla makes them money which it is. To users, it doesn't matter unless sometimes sues them. And I'm pretty sure there is some terms and services clause that makes it non trivial to sue. But also, how is FSD/Tesla relevant to an article on X? Just because it's the same CEO?

manicennui 3y ago
I think the point is that Musk has proven that he can't be fully trusted.

Zambyte 3y ago

Well, they did say "should" (opinion) rather than "will" (prediction of fact)

toomuchtodo 3y ago

Lying to users about performance is covered under free speech. It's securities fraud if Musk is knowingly lying to those with an interest in X, even if a private company. Necessary components are standing ("I own a piece of X"), appetite to litigate, and evidence the statement was knowingly untrue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securities_Exchange_Act_of_1934 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securities_Exchange_Act_of_193... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Securities_Litigation_Reform_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Securities_Litigation_...

sschueller 3y ago
Didn't workout for Nikola. Their trunk didn't work when it was presented but I could say the same thing to the solar roof installation Elon presented.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Nikola's fraud was blatant [1]. They rolled a truck down a hill, and the internal emails were damning. Trying in good faith (solar shingles) and failing isn't fraud, that's just a failed business venture. Solyndra failed too. Fraud? No, just bad business. I can understand that Musk attempts to bend reality to juice the chances of success. I don't condone it personally, but I understand it [2]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/14/business/trevor-milton-nikola-fraud.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/14/business/trevor-milton-ni... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37668438 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37668438
- ssgodderidge 3y ago
  Nikola was also public, and therefore had a higher level of regulatory scrutiny.
ssgodderidge 3y ago
The key there is "knowingly." For those who want to litigate, proving that he's lying is incredibly difficult. You would need some kind of internal message from Musk directly saying that "X will not be profitable in 2024" right before he posted. I doubt anyone will actually sue him over this.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
  Isn't that redundant? You can't unknowingly lie. To lie is to say something that you know isn't true.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    > To lie is to say something that you know isn't true. There's lying by omission; no falsehoods, but important bits left out.
- thrill 3y ago
  There's also "should have known", aka fiduciary duty.
tsimionescu 3y ago
Lying to users about your product is illegal under false advertising laws. Now, proving that in court is a lot easier said than done.
bdcravens 3y ago
Perhaps she is merely a figurehead, but this was the CEO, not Musk, making these statements. "X Corp. Chief Executive Linda Yaccarino said on Wednesday..."
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Is she an officer of the company?

influx 3y ago

Who are the investors? Musk bought them out.

tsimionescu 3y ago
There are still plenty of investors, such as the Saudi royal family. Musk isn't the sole owner of Twitter, some of the old investors agreed to remain co-owners with him in the buyout.
bdcravens 3y ago
Musk took on debt to fund the purchase. Vanguard Group, Morgan Stanley, BlackRock, and State Street all are part of the ownership group.
- rchaud 3y ago
  They're not owners, they're creditors. They receive interest payments, not dividends.

brandonagr2 3y ago

What do you mean FSD won't happen? I used FSD in my car this morning to drive to work

Simulacra 3y ago
My office is 7.1 miles away and I go FSD there and back. Perhaps it's where I live is conducive to functional operation, but it works. Perhaps the difference is that unlike a lot of people who try FSD, I keep my eyes on the road and not watching something like Harry Potter
Zetobal 3y ago
FSD won't happen except under more than ideal conditions. Greetings from snowy Sweden.

rchaud 3y ago

The board is just Musk, he fired everybody else. The investors are Musk, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Binance, Andreessen Horowitz, Sequoia and some others. Imaginary profits shouldn't be an issue for this group, the value of their holdings lies elsewhere. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/12/24/elon-musk-twitter-funders/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/12/24/elon-mu...

rsynnott 3y ago

> I don't get how it is allowed that C-Suits just are allowed to blatantly lie to their investors/board/users they have the data and they know it won't happen This is _why_ many jurisdictions, including the US, have some concept of 'qualified/accredited' investor, and investment in private companies is somewhat restricted to people who are presumed to know what they're doing. CEOs of _public_ companies absolutely cannot lie about financials, but it's murkier for private companies.