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Why is Russia's imperialism far far far worse? What about the us invasion of Iraq is "better" than the Russia invasion of Ukraine?

snowpid 3y ago
1.) Iraq was never annexed by USA. 2.) American govertment never claimed there is no Iraqi culture. 3.) There was no large kidnapping of Iraqi kids. 4.) There are no mass rapes made by the American military. 5.) Iraqis were never forced to forget Arab and learn only English. 6.) Hussein used poison gas on Kurdish people and used Zyklon B filled rockets (yes, same gas like in Ausschwitz) to attack Israel. Hussein occupied Kuwait and attacked Saudi - Arabia. There is no remotely similar thing the Ukraine goverment did in the past.
- za3faran 3y ago
  Lots of these are paper arguments. Yeah so Iraq was not "annexed", but the west installed a puppet government to do what they want, and they attempted to brainwash the population with western values. They did the same in Afghanistan, but fortunately they failed miserably and left in a humiliated manner. Maybe the kidnapping wasn't as bad as ukraine, but the hundreds of thousands killed and millions displaced and sick and poor and left without anything would like to have a word with you. I'm not defending Saddam's atrocities, but let's not pretend that the US didn't nuke Japan or use napalm in Vietnam. Fact of the matter is that the western hypocrisy is now more exposed than ever. You think they really care about Ukraine? All they see is more room to expand their influence and power in the globe.
  - 0xDEF 3y ago
    >Iraq was not "annexed", but the west installed a puppet government to do what they want, and they attempted to brainwash the population with western values. This is a lie. There was a legitimate democratic election in Iraq in January 2005 with 58% voter turnout. Because of the Shia majority of Iraq they voted into power a pro-Iranian Shia-dominated government which is the very opposite of a US "puppet government".
    - za3faran 3y ago
      If you believe that the west didn't have a hand in the outcome, I have a bridge to sell you. Plus, we don't believe in western style democracy in our tradition, so further proof of western destruction and meddling in other countries' affairs. Quite the hypocrisy when they do it themselves but then cry when another power like Russia does it (and I don't condone what is happening in Ukraine either, but the hypocrisy must be pointed out).
      - snowpid 3y ago
        Can you elaborate how a pro Iranian government is a Western puppet government? With credible sources etc.? Also I like to know who is "we".
        za3faran 3y ago
        Wikipedia states: "al-Maliki worked closely with the Multi-National Force (MNF–I), and continued to cooperate with the United States following the withdrawal from Iraq." And "we" as in Muslims.
        snowpid 3y ago
        This is not a puppet goverment. And interestingly "we" excludes parts of Iraque society, namely Christians and Yazidis. Also ask your local Kurdish (mostly Muslims) people what they think about Hussein. You will be surprised ;)
- LindeBuzoGray 3y ago
  [flagged]
ajuc 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#Assessments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukr... Let's also remember a few millions of Ukrainians were starved to death not 100 years ago by Russians. Ukraine is and was the most fertile soil in Europe. Russians sent soldiers to steal food and to ban people from leaving. This is what happens when Russia invades you. People in the west have no comparison.
- johndhi 3y ago
  Some interesting responses here but imo these sound like "worse" but not "far far far worse" conditions to me. A war where lots of people are being killed exploded maimed raped generationally ruined or traumatized - is really horrible either way. It sounds like Russia has somewhat worse intentional practices than us but I don't see what the us did as okay in any sense.
  - ajuc 3y ago
    Russians on their TV openly argue for killing "every Ukrainian". The fact we are even arguing about this is the best evidence that morality is relative...
    - mrguyorama 3y ago
      And that's just the start. They openly advocate for nuking western nations. Imagine if Anderson Cooper spent tens of minutes ranting about how we should just nuke Russia and China because fuck them
      - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
        I'm no apologist for Russia, and you can see that from where I started this thread, but... You act like there aren't actually dozens and dozens of Fox-news style commentators on US media and talk radio who haven't said similar things before, about various enemies of the USA? The asshats on Russian media saying these things are basically the Russian equivalent of that crap. Demagogues etc Some of the shit I heard coming from American right wing media after 9/11 was downright scary.
torstenvl 3y ago
The U.S. could do better about prosecuting troops who commit war crimes, but it does prosecute them. By contrast, Russia openly condones war crimes. Not in the debatable "enhanced interrogation" borderline kind of way. In the kidnapping children to wipe out an entire cultural history and intentionally bombing civilian targets kind of way.
- za3faran 3y ago
  Why prosecute just the troops and not those in command who ordered the war crimes? Starting with Bush sr, Clinton, Bush, Obama, and the rest of the gang and all the way down the chain of command.
cmrdporcupine 3y ago
Ok, let's put it another way so we don't play whataboutisms, which this is what this is veering into: Would you rather your country and governance be controlled and dominated by Russia or by the EU & the west? I think most people here, if they're being honest, know that despite all its issues, political and economic life in the Baltic states, Poland, Czech Republic, etc. is better in most respects than life in Belarus or large parts of Russia, or the Russian dominated states that surround it. We can debate why that is the case, but I think that's basically fact. (Yes, I hear the streets of Minsk are very clean and it's a "well ordered" society, but this is the kind of thing we hear about all sorts of authoritarian countries and it doesn't make up for lack of basic democracy and individual freedoms, etc.) In other words: We are not talking in this concrete instance about whether "the invasion of Iraq is better/worse than Russian invasion of Ukraine", but whether Russian dominance and control of Ukraine is better or worse for Ukrainians than western. I think on the whole the Ukrainian people have voiced their position on this. Now, whether life will be better for Ukrainians in a post-Russian-control world, I can't say, because it seems the Putin/Lavrov regime is doing its best to make that impossible by destroying as much of Ukraine's productive capacity and future success as it can. Russian strategy seems to have transitioned -- about last fall -- from "occupy as much as we can and destroy the Zelensky regime and take over" to "retreat to a defensive line and f*ck up as much of the rest of Ukraine as we can, salting the earth to make it clear what leaving Russian domination looks like" Clearly the US invasion of Iraq is a historic war crime. It should not have happened, and I agree with others that the perpetrators should be held to account. But this isn't a math equation where we balance the one action with the other. We are talking about the physical real lives of Ukrainians, and their ability to control their own country and trade with who they want, and manage their own affairs -- not Iraq. In other words, it's not US imperialism in the abstract vs Russian imperialism in the abstract, it's in this instance for this real world situation the case that western/EU/US alignment is better in the long run for Ukraine than Putin's.
- johndhi 3y ago
  Great post.

snowpid 3y ago

1.) Iraq was never annexed by USA. 2.) American govertment never claimed there is no Iraqi culture. 3.) There was no large kidnapping of Iraqi kids. 4.) There are no mass rapes made by the American military. 5.) Iraqis were never forced to forget Arab and learn only English. 6.) Hussein used poison gas on Kurdish people and used Zyklon B filled rockets (yes, same gas like in Ausschwitz) to attack Israel. Hussein occupied Kuwait and attacked Saudi - Arabia. There is no remotely similar thing the Ukraine goverment did in the past.

za3faran 3y ago
Lots of these are paper arguments. Yeah so Iraq was not "annexed", but the west installed a puppet government to do what they want, and they attempted to brainwash the population with western values. They did the same in Afghanistan, but fortunately they failed miserably and left in a humiliated manner. Maybe the kidnapping wasn't as bad as ukraine, but the hundreds of thousands killed and millions displaced and sick and poor and left without anything would like to have a word with you. I'm not defending Saddam's atrocities, but let's not pretend that the US didn't nuke Japan or use napalm in Vietnam. Fact of the matter is that the western hypocrisy is now more exposed than ever. You think they really care about Ukraine? All they see is more room to expand their influence and power in the globe.
- 0xDEF 3y ago
  >Iraq was not "annexed", but the west installed a puppet government to do what they want, and they attempted to brainwash the population with western values. This is a lie. There was a legitimate democratic election in Iraq in January 2005 with 58% voter turnout. Because of the Shia majority of Iraq they voted into power a pro-Iranian Shia-dominated government which is the very opposite of a US "puppet government".
  - za3faran 3y ago
    If you believe that the west didn't have a hand in the outcome, I have a bridge to sell you. Plus, we don't believe in western style democracy in our tradition, so further proof of western destruction and meddling in other countries' affairs. Quite the hypocrisy when they do it themselves but then cry when another power like Russia does it (and I don't condone what is happening in Ukraine either, but the hypocrisy must be pointed out).
    - snowpid 3y ago
      Can you elaborate how a pro Iranian government is a Western puppet government? With credible sources etc.? Also I like to know who is "we".
      - za3faran 3y ago
        Wikipedia states: "al-Maliki worked closely with the Multi-National Force (MNF–I), and continued to cooperate with the United States following the withdrawal from Iraq." And "we" as in Muslims.
        snowpid 3y ago
        This is not a puppet goverment. And interestingly "we" excludes parts of Iraque society, namely Christians and Yazidis. Also ask your local Kurdish (mostly Muslims) people what they think about Hussein. You will be surprised ;)
LindeBuzoGray 3y ago
[flagged]

ajuc 3y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#Assessments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukr... Let's also remember a few millions of Ukrainians were starved to death not 100 years ago by Russians. Ukraine is and was the most fertile soil in Europe. Russians sent soldiers to steal food and to ban people from leaving. This is what happens when Russia invades you. People in the west have no comparison.

johndhi 3y ago
Some interesting responses here but imo these sound like "worse" but not "far far far worse" conditions to me. A war where lots of people are being killed exploded maimed raped generationally ruined or traumatized - is really horrible either way. It sounds like Russia has somewhat worse intentional practices than us but I don't see what the us did as okay in any sense.
- ajuc 3y ago
  Russians on their TV openly argue for killing "every Ukrainian". The fact we are even arguing about this is the best evidence that morality is relative...
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    And that's just the start. They openly advocate for nuking western nations. Imagine if Anderson Cooper spent tens of minutes ranting about how we should just nuke Russia and China because fuck them
    - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
      I'm no apologist for Russia, and you can see that from where I started this thread, but... You act like there aren't actually dozens and dozens of Fox-news style commentators on US media and talk radio who haven't said similar things before, about various enemies of the USA? The asshats on Russian media saying these things are basically the Russian equivalent of that crap. Demagogues etc Some of the shit I heard coming from American right wing media after 9/11 was downright scary.

torstenvl 3y ago

The U.S. could do better about prosecuting troops who commit war crimes, but it does prosecute them. By contrast, Russia openly condones war crimes. Not in the debatable "enhanced interrogation" borderline kind of way. In the kidnapping children to wipe out an entire cultural history and intentionally bombing civilian targets kind of way.

za3faran 3y ago
Why prosecute just the troops and not those in command who ordered the war crimes? Starting with Bush sr, Clinton, Bush, Obama, and the rest of the gang and all the way down the chain of command.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago

Ok, let's put it another way so we don't play whataboutisms, which this is what this is veering into: Would you rather your country and governance be controlled and dominated by Russia or by the EU & the west? I think most people here, if they're being honest, know that despite all its issues, political and economic life in the Baltic states, Poland, Czech Republic, etc. is better in most respects than life in Belarus or large parts of Russia, or the Russian dominated states that surround it. We can debate why that is the case, but I think that's basically fact. (Yes, I hear the streets of Minsk are very clean and it's a "well ordered" society, but this is the kind of thing we hear about all sorts of authoritarian countries and it doesn't make up for lack of basic democracy and individual freedoms, etc.) In other words: We are not talking in this concrete instance about whether "the invasion of Iraq is better/worse than Russian invasion of Ukraine", but whether Russian dominance and control of Ukraine is better or worse for Ukrainians than western. I think on the whole the Ukrainian people have voiced their position on this. Now, whether life will be better for Ukrainians in a post-Russian-control world, I can't say, because it seems the Putin/Lavrov regime is doing its best to make that impossible by destroying as much of Ukraine's productive capacity and future success as it can. Russian strategy seems to have transitioned -- about last fall -- from "occupy as much as we can and destroy the Zelensky regime and take over" to "retreat to a defensive line and f*ck up as much of the rest of Ukraine as we can, salting the earth to make it clear what leaving Russian domination looks like" Clearly the US invasion of Iraq is a historic war crime. It should not have happened, and I agree with others that the perpetrators should be held to account. But this isn't a math equation where we balance the one action with the other. We are talking about the physical real lives of Ukrainians, and their ability to control their own country and trade with who they want, and manage their own affairs -- not Iraq. In other words, it's not US imperialism in the abstract vs Russian imperialism in the abstract, it's in this instance for this real world situation the case that western/EU/US alignment is better in the long run for Ukraine than Putin's.

johndhi 3y ago
Great post.