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Iconic tree at Hadrian's Wall's 'Sycamore Gap' has been 'felled'
- a-posteriori 3y agoThis is really disappointing. Truly, some people just want to watch the world burn...
- ramesh31 3y agoDestruction is so easy, quick, and satisfying. It's why the simple minded find it so enjoyable. Creation is hard, and requires a thousand times the work. Fuck that.
- techterrier 3y agolocal landowner* was getting cross with all the people coming to see it. I've had a couple of run ins with them walking the dog there * edit: i mentioned this on another forum and was corrected- the land is owned by the National Trust, my run ins were probably with a tennant farmer.
- datameta 3y agoWhat happens when an unstoppable instagram generation meets an immovable NIMBY.
- Steltek 3y agoThe popularity of that tree predates Instagram. Insta might exacerbate the phenomenon but it's not new. E.g. Rick Steves and Cinque Terre.
- datameta 3y agoAs I touched on in another comment, social media is a disproportionate attractor of travelers for many famous locations around the world, especially for those that are "out of the way". In addition, there is an influx of global middle class with the newly found means to travel. Over a billion people in a generation.
- macNchz 3y agoEven in already-popular places I think there is something about “getting the photo” that gives people this kind of tunnel vision where they’ll behave in ways they might not otherwise. It has been noticeable living near and regularly walking/running across the Brooklyn Bridge and through the Front and Washington viewpoint in DUMBO, before and after the rise of Instagram. People are aggressive, selfish, and absolutely unaware of others as they try to get their version of a photo that is taken tens of thousands of times a day.
- Steltek 3y agoI wish people would realize that their vacation photos should include, well, them. When I travel, I'm taking pictures of my family doing things, not the things they're doing. No one needs another generic copy of just the Eiffel Tower or the Statue of Liberty.
- toyg 3y agoI wonder if such tennant can be evicted.
- jacquesm 3y agoIf it's found they felled the tree then they're in a lot of trouble.
- AlecSchueler 3y agoSadly it would be pretty hard to pin this on them. Farmers and field owners get away with almost anything in the UK. Look at the gorse fires or the state of Lough Neagh.
- jacquesm 3y agoI believe you but I find it hard to imagine that something like this would go without serious consequences. Here in NL cutting down any tree, even if it is on your own land requires a permit. Doing it without a permit to a vandalize a valuable piece of heritage should not be without consequences.
- yourusername 3y ago> Here in NL cutting down any tree, even if it is on your own land requires a permit. Depends on the municipality. Rules around cutting down trees vary from "go ahead if it's not one of these 5 protected trees" to "please pay 1000 euro to request a permit 6 weeks in advance".
- jacquesm 3y agoGo ahead is still a permit though.
- yourusername 3y agoMany municipalities state there is no need for a permit unless you want to cut down specific protected trees.
- dontlaugh 3y agoThere were very few people there every time I've been, seems like a poor reason.
- blitzar 3y agoReminds me of a wonky pub that inconveniently burnt down recently.
- laserbeam 3y agoYa know, if you're gonna illegally chop down a tree, at least steal the wood as well... Just saying...
- pavel_lishin 3y agoNever commit two crimes at the same time.
- andrewinardeer 3y agoJaywalking and blasphemy.
- jacquesm 3y agoVandals don't give a damn about what they destroy. What a waste this.
- zui 3y agoThe tree has its own Wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sycamore_Gap_Tree https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sycamore_Gap_Tree
- dclowd9901 3y agoBig misstep from the article not publishing a picture of the tree standing.
- jacquesm 3y ago'we have reason to believe it was deliberately felled' One look at the base of that trunk and I think you can upgrade that to 'we know it was deliberately felled'.
- kergonath 3y agoThat’s the expected British understatement, it’s just how the police communicates there.
- soneil 3y agoI think it's the correct terminology here. The police believe and suspect, the court try and prove. Arrests are always made 'on suspicion of'.
- benj111 3y agoNo the prosecution try to prove. The the judge, judges. Well that's how it's 'supposed' to work.
- toyg 3y ago> Then the judge, judges. Unless it's a criminal offense and the defendant invoked his right to being judged by a jury.
- amiga386 3y agoEven then, the judge is still doing judging. The jury determine if the defendant is guilty of charges or not, based on the evidence given during the trial. The judge still judges the admissibility of evidence, the conduct of the prosecution and defence, etc., and also determines the punishment or sentence, based on sentencing guidelines, if the jury find the defendant guilty of any charges. https://www.cps.gov.uk/about-cps/how-a-criminal-case-works https://www.cps.gov.uk/about-cps/how-a-criminal-case-works
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- colesantiago 3y agoSo? It's just a tree, why should we care about it just because a random person planted a seed a hundred years ago?
- mikhailfranco 3y agoYes, it's just a tree. A new tree can grow. The Philistine instagrammers will be disappointed. So sad. It's not a Roman tree. A new tree literally grows (on) trees.
- jacquesm 3y agoThis is not about the instagrammers, it is about respect for heritage sites.
- mikhailfranco 3y agohttps://petapixel.com/2023/09/25/influencers-ruin-beauty-spot-photographers-have-used-for-decades/ https://petapixel.com/2023/09/25/influencers-ruin-beauty-spo... https://www.thenationalnews.com/lifestyle/travel/instagrammers-are-complaining-about-this-beauty-spot-in-bali-1.885993 https://www.thenationalnews.com/lifestyle/travel/instagramme... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/17/instagrammers-travel-sri-lanka-tourists-peachy-backsides-social-media-obsessed https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/17/instag...
- 11235813213455 3y agoCan we say the same statement with human instead of tree?
- hiatus 3y agoAre you really comparing cutting down a tree to murdering a human being?
- 11235813213455 3y ago
- dboreham 3y agoI'm sure you can do "tooth pattern CSI" on a chain saw cut to prove which chain saw made it.
- jacquesm 3y agoYou can do better than that, cleaning a saw to the point where there is no debris on it from a recent cut is pretty difficult. I'm fairly sure my saw still has bits on it from trees in Canada and that's 15 years ago. This tree is pretty unique, you're going to have a very hard time proving that bits found that match the tree are from any other tree that you may have cut, especially if you can't show where you did that.
- kikokikokiko 3y agoLet's use some tree DNA to solve this case.
- lawlessone 3y agoThey'll probably have good idea if anyone rented or owns equipment too.
- tgv 3y agoSounds like the start of "The Wall", a series in which the remnants of a felled tree are found exactly over the border of England and Scotland, forcing an English and a Scottish detective to work together. The English one is a working mom with a deadbeat husband and a past of drug abuse, the Scottish one is an divorced, alcoholic middle-aged man with estranged children. Both have "come to grips with ..." Free after https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bridge_(2011_TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bridge_(2011_TV_series)
- dontlaugh 3y agoWent there a few times, it was a beautiful tree in a beautiful landscape. It's sad to think I can no longer go see it again.
- perihelions 3y agoMost of modern Scotland was forest up until a fairly recent time. The felling of one tree is an instagram tragedy; the felling of one billion is an economic statistic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonian_Forest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonian_Forest
- Floegipoky 3y agoPerspective on "fairly recent" from wiki: > An examination of the earliest maps of Scotland suggests that the extent of the Caledonian Forest remnants has changed little since 1600.
- AlecSchueler 3y ago"Recent" is always a funny thing. In my mind 1600 is roughly the start, or a little after the start, of the modern period, therefore recent. Who was it that said "In Europe 100 miles is a long way, in America 100 years is a long time?"
- karaterobot 3y ago> Who was it that said "In Europe 100 miles is a long way, in America 100 years is a long time?" In my experience, everyone on HN whenever the opportunity to quote it arises.
- edent 3y agoThat's a surprisingly difficult question to answer. https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2023/09/who-said-brits-think-100-miles-is-a-long-distance-americans-think-100-years-is-a-long-time/ https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2023/09/who-said-brits-think-100-mi...
- qingcharles 3y agoI love in the US when people boast their house was built in the 1800s. 1800s! In England I consider that fancy new construction. But yes, it boggles peoples' minds in England when you travel more than a couple of hours by car to go anywhere. If I told a Brit I drove my car 2500 miles to L.A. on a whim they would have me institutionalized.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- blondie9x 3y agoThis is a crime. A terrible senseless crime in a time of environmental destruction by mankind. What we need to do is take any seeds of this tree and plant 20-100 of its potential children in the area. We need to grind this tree up and make food and strengthen the soil for the future trees in the site. Potentially we then need more cameras or tighter restrictions when it comes to visiting the site during off hours. When a tree is felled it will take decades or centuries for a baby tree to offset the same amount of carbon per year. Therefore we need to make sure hundreds are planted with compost for the trees. Can anyone with connections to site discuss with them or share ideas with the community?
- jacquesm 3y agoI was with you until the cameras. But I'd be happy to contribute to a bounty to catch whoever did this. I have similar feelings for tourists that climb on monuments as well (or that scratch their names into them).
- blondie9x 3y agoDoesn’t need to be cameras. Tighter restrictions might be more practical during off hours.
- ricardobeat 3y agoAre you from the area? I was under the impression this place is a vast open field, surrounded by farm land. Can’t imagine how you would restrict access.
- mnw21cam 3y agoIt's on a public footpath. It's legally quite hard to stop people walking on those whenever they want to. Also, the land owner is the National Trust, and they don't tend to want to restrict access to open spaces like this. Also, there's not very much left there to vandalise now - you'd get more benefit by restricting access to the trees that are still standing elsewhere in the entire country, which is never going to happen.
- 3y ago
- kikokikokiko 3y agoSlightly related: I always get surprised by how "small" Hadrian wall is. I mean, it was just to demarcate tthe point where the barbarians "should not" cross I believe? For sure it wasn't working as a regular wall to stop any invasions.
- londons_explore 3y agoEven a 1 foot high wall is hard to sneakily move at night. It's a marker on the ground of 'my territory' vs 'your territory'. If you catch someone the wrong side of it, they have no excuse of 'oh, I thought this was my land'.
- londons_explore 3y agoThe wall is nearly 2000 years old. It used to be 15 feet high and 10 feet wide. [1] Nearly everything else that old has fallen down to the foundations. It turns out nature is good at knocking stuff down till it's about a foot high, and then just leaves the footings of all the walls. Plenty of castles and stuff have 1 foot high walls now. Also, people steal the stones to build other stuff. But it's more effort to steal stones already buried in the ground. [1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=how+high+was+hadrians+wall https://www.google.com/search?q=how+high+was+hadrians+wall
- lawlessone 3y agoYeah , people take stones to clear land for farming or to build walls to enclose their farms. Can't be too mad about it though, the wall was probably relatively new to them
- scott_w 3y agoAlso historical preservation was less important to the people at the time when life was, frankly, much harder than it is today. Most well preserved buildings today are the ones that were useful to keep around - for their original or for a new purpose.
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- londons_explore 3y agoWild guess: Someone had a romantic photo taken with this tree, and someone else was determined to cut down the tree as a sign of the end of the relationship.
- shapefrog 3y agoYou are showing your Croydon roots.
- tristramb 3y agoMust have been one of these https://www.savagechickens.com/2023/09/nobody-likes-my-movie-pitch.html https://www.savagechickens.com/2023/09/nobody-likes-my-movie...
- bombcar 3y agoCan you put it back together? I mean normally you wouldn't even try, but if you cut a tree like that and stick the two halves back together and support it, could it remain alive? I know you can graft branches ...
- VBprogrammer 3y agoHonestly I've no idea why that wouldn't work given what does actually work in terms of grafting.
- sp332 3y agoIt's a sycamore tree. Unless they poisoned the roots, it will probably grow back quickly from the stump.
- mentos 3y agoYea this is my question too I feel like they could bring in an expert and graft the pieces back
- jacquesm 3y agoA tree is 'mostly dead', the inside doesn't do much, the outside is where all the action is and grafts are usually done with very young material so there will be plenty of support by the time it gets larger and heavier. The proportion of 'living:dead' material is much more amendable to grafting too. And it tends to be done with budding branches rather than a whole tree, in fact I haven't been able to find any reference of someone cutting down a tree and putting it back together, especially one of this size, the structural challenge alone makes it something that I do not think will work, especially not in that location with the tree taking the brunt of the wind load through that gap.
- pvaldes 3y agoIn theory yes, but in the best cases you would have a very heavy load joined by stitches and not much more. Plus a few flattened tourists at the first breeze. An engineer could design a device gluing a inner core of hard wood or so, but we would need an expert on materials for that, and political will to allocate resources and do it fast. The tree will regrow from the basis and grow fast for a while, but its health is doomed forever, will be also very vulnerable to cattle and wind (hanging forever from a hollowed trunk). nobody alive will see a 300 Yo healthy tree here anymore. Acer pseudoplatanus has a semi-soft wood. That fact is relevant to investigate if the Satan's little tool needed help or not. Doing the same with an oak would be much more difficult for an adolescent. My bet is that there was a team here, and the boy role was to be chewed by the police as a bait. Knowing it or not. The intellectual author could be in a different country by now.
- rindalir 3y agoPerhaps this tree will get its own "Golden Spruce" story. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiidk%27yaas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiidk%27yaas
- Floegipoky 3y agoThe term "sycamore" means different things depending on the continent. In North America when we say it we're talking about the American Sycamore, platanus occidentalis. In Asia and Europe it's actually a maple, acer pseudoplatanus, and the common name for it in the US is "sycamore maple". Unfortunately it's invasive in parts of the US, and it's not even native to England.
- Floegipoky 3y agoThe good news is that there's a very high likelihood that the tree will push new growth from the stump and survive, though it probably won't ever be as healthy and majestic as it once was.
- Accacin 3y agoI mean, it's beautiful but also another reason I'm disappointed. I walked Hadrian's Wall a few years ago in a very hot (for the UK) summer, and there were very few places some days to get shade and have a rest. The tree provided lovely shade and lots of people chose to sit there to relax, cool down, and have a drink.
- mitthrowaway2 3y agoThe sad thing about this tree is that there aren't hundreds more!
- mellosouls 3y agoNot a bad website by the appalling standards of local newspapers in the UK but there's a better page on this story at the Beeb fwiw: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-66947040 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-66947040
- JdeBP 3y agoThat is probably because it is a Newsquest Media publication, rather than a Reach PLC publication. Reach PLC journalism is sometimes laughably bad, sometimes lamentably. Some Newsquest Media titles are running the rather longer piece from the Press Association. For example: https://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/national/23819640.famous-sycamore-gap-tree-deliberately-felled-apparent-act-vandalism/ https://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/national/23819640.fam...
- mellosouls 3y agoYes, I was particularly thinking of Retch PLC, which Private Eye recently reckoned had had one of its own senior execs complaining about how bad the website was.
- jlarcombe 3y agothis is just horrible news
- Karellen 3y agoBoy, 16, arrested after Hadrian's Wall tree felled https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-66952980 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-66952980
- voisin 3y agoIf he wanted to destroy irreplaceable trees, all he had to do was come to Canada and he’d get paid to do it.
- jacquesm 3y agoNothing sadder than 30' of remaining strip to the side of the road and clearcut from there to the horizon. If you're on the road you don't even see the difference but ecologically speaking it's a disaster.
- e4325f 3y ago[flagged]
- kitd 3y agoTeenager arrested: https://news.sky.com/story/sycamore-gap-iconic-tree-at-hadrians-wall-deliberately-felled-12971594 https://news.sky.com/story/sycamore-gap-iconic-tree-at-hadri...
- toyg 3y agoI find it hard to believe a 16yo can fell a big chunky tree all on his own - although I guess I don't know how powerful modern chainsaws are.
- icegreentea2 3y agoThe height and weight distribution of late teenage males is quite smeary (https://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/data/set2clinical/cj41c071.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/data/set2clinical/cj41c071....). Eye-balling this, the 90th percentile 16 year old is about as tall as the 80th percentile 20 year old, and as heavy as the 75th percentile 20 year old. Conversely, the 50th percentile 20 year old corresponds to like the ~55th percentile 16 year old in height and like the 75th percentile 16 year old in weight.
- nkurz 3y agoWhile true, this isn't the right way to analyze this. The right question is how much strength or size is necessary to operate a modern powerful chainsaw with a sharp chain. The answer is "not much". You need to be able to position a ~15 lb (7 kg) saw at waist height for a few seconds until each of three cuts is started. With a sharp saw, the forces are negligible after that for 2 of the 3 cuts required. With good technique, you can even use leverage against the trunk for the one short upward cut. There is considerable skill involved, but brute strength is not a requirement. While you are presuming a male 16-year-old here, I wouldn't be surprised if most female 14-year-olds were physically strong enough.
- TinkersW 3y agoIt would be easy, that tree is small compared to what I've seen the tree murderers get up to with redwoods.
- jononomo 3y ago> Supt Kevin Waring described the tree as "a world-renowned landmark" This makes me think of David Foster Wallace, whom the world learned was a famous writer only after he died.
- amiga386 3y agoCan I just say this: BASTARD. What kind of bastard destroys such a thing of natural beauty? This bastard is not alone, there are other bastards out there. For example, Sheffield council: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/06/sheffield-city-council-behaved-dishonestly-in-street-trees-row-inquiry-finds https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/06/sheffield-ci... and Plymouth council: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-64961358 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-64961358 and this guy: https://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/19660776.northwood-man-fined-illegally-destroying-protected-trees/ https://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/19660776.northwood-ma... and especially this guy: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65890748 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65890748
- rubylark 3y agoI am surprised how weirdly common it is. Something similar happened nearish me as well: https://www.chicagotribune.com/midwest/ct-madison-arboretum-rare-tree-theft-frat-pledge-20210326-pipuzgw33jaktjwzmaowsciau4-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/midwest/ct-madison-arboretum-...
- appplication 3y agoWhat is the meaning of all of this? Is this just anti-social behavior seeping into city councils? Is there some political motive here?
- pvaldes 3y ago"If you want to destroy the spirit of a country don't kill its people, burn its forests, fell the trees, and destroy its prized cultural artifacts" The oldest trick in the book of war
- pvaldes 3y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_T%C3%A9n%C3%A9r%C3%A9 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_T%C3%A9n%C3%A9r%C3%A9
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- jfengel 3y agoI was trying to figure out the significance of this tree. It is alongside the wall but does not date to its construction, or anywhere near. It is several hundred years old, which is certainly remarkable though far from unique. It seems to be known primarily for being picturesque, which is less about the tree itself and more for being located in an interesting gap in the hills. It shows up in a number of movies, and as far as I can tell, its being really famous only dates to the 1990s. I don't mean to diminish this. It was a much-beloved icon destroyed in senseless cruelty. I was just trying to put it into context for myself. Its proximity to the much older icon is largely coincidental.
- rickboyce 3y agoUs Brits are very passionate about lovely trees! I’ve walked along that part of Hadrian’s Wall and stopped at that tree a number of times and it truly was a beautiful spot with real impact. I don’t think there is any rational significance to the tree - it was just an ancient beautiful tree, standing alone in a very dramatic landscape. A tree that many folks paused to rest at and admire as they walked along Hadrian’s wall (itself steeped in history).
- mytailorisrich 3y agoThis is a tree that was probably touched by both Kevin Costner and Morgan Freeman. This is close to holiness.
- pvaldes 3y agoThis tik tak videos are paying for themselves I wonder how much we could bill for that wood
- lacker 3y agoIt's sad to see. A large old growth redwood tree near me, destination point of some popular hikes, was intentionally burned down recently. https://www.parks.ca.gov/NewsRelease/1074 https://www.parks.ca.gov/NewsRelease/1074 Technically "the cause of the fire is unknown" but when there's a fire that burns down a single tree harming nothing around in the dense forest, it's pretty obviously intentional. I wish I had more to say, but it seems like just meaningless destruction, from people who wish to meaninglessly destroy things.
- nickdothutton 3y agoWhat a pity. A wanton act of vandalism. Sycamore trees live up to about 400 years so the tree would have had at least a couple of hundred years more giving pleasure to those visiting the area and providing a home for wildlife. Hopefully this vandal will be immortalised by the Internet for the next couple of hundred years too.
- crtified 3y agoA similar thing happens in the name of public interest on a regular basis. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tears-rage-hs2-killing-field-22770940 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tears-rage-hs2-killing... The immature, probably ill-raised boy who perpetrated this 1-tree act at Hadrian's Wall - a boy not even old enough to understand what "heritage" truly is - becomes the symbol of hatred around the world, and the full-grown man upon whose orders dozens and hundreds are killed with as-near-equally-thin-justification as to not matter, gets to be (then) Prime Minister, lauded high class high-table sitter of the world, paid 5-figures to talk for an hour, for the rest of his life. The rage we should expend upon the latter, but which we are societally programmed to simply accept as compromise, instead gets emotionally expended upon stupid little 1-hit-wonders like this young kid at Hadrian's - as a symbol of all that's wrong with the world, and in lieu of actually expending our deep displeasure with those who make such acts systemic, everyday business. We have it backwards.
- prisonernumber6 3y ago[flagged]
- pvaldes 3y ago60 Yo man has been arrested it seems
- pvaldes 3y agoWalter Renwick, a 69 Yo retiree who lives on Plankey Mill Farm just 8 miles from the gap, was arrested on Friday. The farm is owned by the Jesuits. He directed an unauthorized campsite on the farm. National Trust owns an adjacent property to the campsite. Over a number of years, the Jesuits, have received complaints from both the local council and the National Trust about the unsocial behavior of several campers, especially in 2020. This lead to him being evicted in July 2023, after a 15 years grace period given from the Jesuits to find a new home [1]. Local rumors had linked him with the tree felling, because of his former profession of lumberjack, and as revenge by been evicted from his home. He said that he didn't do it. "It makes it sound like me, doesn't it, because it was a good cut. It was dark obviously but it was a lovely moonlit night... the cut was brilliant. You can tell a good lumberjack by the way he cuts a tree down. I haven't seen the cut obviously, but I have seen it on the computer" [2]. Maybe it was him or maybe not, but he had the skills, the opportunity, and the motivation. [1] https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1788020/Jesuits-evicting-third-generation-farmer https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1788020/Jesuits-evicting-t... [2] https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/sycamore-gap-lumberjack-walter-renwick-denies-felling/ https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/sycamore-gap-lumberjack-walter-re...