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Leased solar systems are failing across America
- discordance 3y agoSpent $6k here in Australia for 6.6kW system with Microinverters. Has worked really well for the past 3 years. Seems very common here. Not sure why the US is having such a hard time in comparison.
- dudus 3y agoThey're supposed to last 30 years. So maybe it's too early to tell.
- dymk 3y agoThe demand for solar in the US is high, but number of skilled laborers willing to be on a roof is very low. Last year I called almost 40 installers, every one of them was booked out for at least 6 months, some for a year. So, they can demand a premium. Cost of hardware is also a lot higher. I was able to get panels for about $1/watt, iirc in AU it's closer to $0.45/watt (not installed, just the hardware).
- mandevil 3y agoFactoring in the exchange rate, that's maybe half the the price I paid for a similar system here in the US less than a year ago. The thing that is hurting people is leasing. Basically to avoid people having to front that much cash, there are a lot of people who will install roof-top solar for no-money down- and a 30 year lease on the hardware on top of your own house. Then if you sell the house, now you have to get the new buyer to assume the lease, and the hedge funds who are primarily running the leasing operation are famously bad at running their back-office stuff (because that costs money to do right, but doesn't give them a single extra dollar). When we were looking into this we saw too many horror stories around leasing and decided we had to buy, which has worked out great for us- kicked our monthly power bill during the expensive season from >$500 to <$200, and the house is actually more comfortable than it was before. The recent changes in the Inflation Reduction Act, offering a 30% tax rebate on all roof-top solar purchases, really changes the calculations and makes leasing much less attractive, so there will probably be many fewer of them going forward. But that also means that there will be less money for the hedge funds that have invested in the leasing, and they will probably make life even worse for the people with existing leases.
- code_Whisperer 3y agoWife and I were looking to lease a solar system locally, but sadly our use-case includes a minimum requirement of nine planets.
- jddj 3y agoAlong the same lines, it reminded me of Denis Hope's lunar real estate shenanigans https://whyy.org/segments/who-owns-the-moon/ https://whyy.org/segments/who-owns-the-moon/
- adolph 3y agoToo bad you aren't living in a nine planet system anymore.
- grumpopotamus 3y agoOr are we? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_Nine?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_Nine?wprov=sfla1
- adolph 3y agoIf the gravitational effects leading to inferences of a large extra-neptunian object were a “primordial black hole” would it still count as a planet? But if not a planet, then what? Scholtz suspects it could be something even more exotic: a primordial black hole, one forged in the big bang. https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24933280-100-is-there-an-ancient-black-hole-at-the-edge-of-the-solar-system/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24933280-100-is-there... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_black_hole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_black_hole
- dcuthbertson 3y agoWhether you lease or buy, don't settle for anything less than a full complement of planets, dwarf planets, asteroids, meteors, and comets. You should also have it inspected first. You want to be sure it will last and won't get sucked into a supermassive blackhole.
- bob1029 3y agoI was debating getting a rooftop solar system, but then I had some interactions with the door-to-door sales people pushing these installs. It quickly became clear to me that there was a strong disconnect between the "acquire business" and "fulfill obligations" aspects of these operations. I don't think a single one of the installers in my area would look at my situation and say "nah I wouldn't put panels on your roof - not worth it. Please keep your money".
- MerelyMortal 3y ago> door-to-door sales people The harder they work, the more lucrative the contract for them AKA you're getting a bad deal. Pretty much like 99% of advertising: the more they advertise, the more expensive they will be compared to the competition.
- BenoitP 3y agoExactly! It's like ads on TV. It's like a catalog for the highest margin products. Also often for products that can hack us through instinctive reactions (appeal to status: cars/makeup, fear: insurance, etc)
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dylan604 3y agoIn today's world, you just have to assume that any door-to-door sales must be a scam.
- hotnfresh 3y agoYeah, can confirm, don’t do it. Ours is performing as intended but only after months and months of bullshit and having to get half our roof redone (which they paid for, but god that was annoying) because they messed it up horribly on initial install. I’m never doing rooftop again, and if I do solar, it’ll be ground level and I’ll do everything myself but the scariest parts of the electrical work. [edit] oh and it’s connected through some Internet of Shit device that I’m sure will stop working in a few years and cause all kinds of trouble in the replacement. If I’d known it wasn’t just gonna be a big on/off switch, I’d not have done it.
- vishnugupta 3y agoI had tough time parsing the headline. It can’t possibly be the case that US has its own solar system.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- geodel 3y agoWell, it is systems so not one for US but anyone living in US can have their own solar system.
- BitwiseFool 3y ago>"It can’t possibly be the case that US has its own solar system." Have you heard of Manifest Destiny?
- dcuthbertson 3y agoLikewise. I thought it would be about some kind of "name a star" service, but now you get not only a star, but all the celestial bodies in orbit, too. The linked article says, "Rooftop Solar Power..." which is much more clear.
- Icathian 3y agoI'm not affiliated, but I've had my panels for 9 years (out of a 30 year support contract) and the company involved has been incredibly professional and supportive. If you're in the US Midwest and considering, I'm happy to give out the name. It's a shame that bad actors have impacted such a crucial industry.
- tnel77 3y agoI would love some more information if you don’t mind sharing.
- Icathian 3y agoCompany I went with was Tron Solar.
- Capricorn2481 3y agoI too would like more info.
- Icathian 3y agoCompany I went with was Tron Solar.
- specialist 3y agoThese profiteers are a huge threat to our glorious renewable residential roof top solar energy future. Once enough of these retrofits go bad, public opinion will sour, greatly slowing down adoption. Solar attracts the same kind of grifters that do windows, roofs, and siding. With the added risks and complexity of messing with the electrical. (At least my windows will never need a firmware update.) Being curious, I endured the pitch from a local solar contractor. It was everything you'd expect. I can totally see how they can suck people in. If a home owner can't/won't manage the solar install themselves, I don't see how they avoid falling prey. I mosdef would never lease. Sunrun has to option where they own and operate the gear, selling you the power (with the option to buy the gear at the end of contract). This arrangement of incentives might be best for most people.
- johndhi 3y agoLeased solar systems sounds like a great sci-fi premise. Rent a few planets out...
- pjc50 3y agoWhy prepay $6k for a lease? You've just obliterated the cashflow benefit of leasing. Separately, the US seems in general very poor for basic consumer advocacy stuff? Like, fabricated culture war stories can make national news, but "person ripped off by business" doesn't enter politics at all?
- InitialLastName 3y agoCertain parts of the US establishment put enormous cultural weight on preserving the right of businesses to take advantage of consumers under the theory that in a free market the information will spread organically and consumers will punish those businesses. It doesn't hurt that it's effectively legal for businesses to bribe politicians (as long as nobody is dumb enough to keep 6-figure sums of cash in their houses and get their wives no-show jobs for those businesses).
- dymk 3y agoI decided to install solar myself, paid out of pocket, after having sales rep after sales rep knock on my door trying to sell me a leased or financed system. What they were offering for $60k over 30 years, I was able to do for $23k after incentives, and I fully own the system. The hardware itself is top of the line, and so will be less likely to need repair over the next few decades. But if I do need it repaired, I can call up any good installer in the area (ones that make their money putting panels on roofs, not the ones that make their money selling loans and leases), and I'll still be ahead.
- foxyv 3y agoA little bit of sweat equity is the ONLY way to do solar installs. Even if you hire other people to do the installation, sourcing the panels, the hardware, and your own electrician will save tens of thousands of dollars. If you let a general contractor like SunRun, Tesla, or Solar City do the sourcing, you will either get: a) The older generation equipment for top of the line prices. b) Top of the line equipment for obscene prices.
- fewald_net 3y agoI am thinking about installing solar. Do you have any resources to learn about panels etc?
- foxyv 3y agoThere are a lot of guides out there like: https://unboundsolar.com/solar-information/diy-solar https://unboundsolar.com/solar-information/diy-solar https://www.renogy.com/blog/the-ultimate-guide-to-diy-offgrid-solar-systems/?Rng_ads=30dfdebf70858a7b&gad=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwyNSoBhA9EiwA5aYlbwUgKV4xtXRO7MBQmd_5dXuJuqcR-f92wkh8ss3sLnj0OL7qPbs4YxoCX9UQAvD_BwE https://www.renogy.com/blog/the-ultimate-guide-to-diy-offgri... You may also want to watch some YouTube videos about how other people have installed their own. Mostly they are off-grid, but there are a few grid-tied systems as well. For the grid tied systems I would recommend buying plans like dymk did. A bill of materials and a plan will help a ton. Based on the kit DYMK showed in his breakdown I think he used SelfSolar: https://selfsolar.com/your-solar-journey/ https://selfsolar.com/your-solar-journey/
- thelastgallon 3y agoIn previous posts, commenters from Australia, Pakistan and India replied how cheap their solar installations were, 1/3 of what it costs in US. Looks like India nailed it. US $1294 for 5KWh ongrid, 14 days from document submission to our plant generating electricity: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35712758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35712758
- ZeroGravitas 3y agoIt sounds like (the article is really not clear on the important details) the incentives were set up correctly i.e. if the hardware you lease is faulty then you will not lose out monetarily. But the companies can somehow just get away with not fulfilling their contractual obligations and so in reality you do lose out and you're just forced to pay for a service you don't receive?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- throw7 3y agoI'd recommend people opt for ground installations if possible. Attaching and maintaining devices on your roof should be thought about carefully.