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I really like the Ron Hogan translation. It's lighter on the woo and, y'know, connects. https://terebess.hu/english/tao/ron.html https://terebess.hu/english/ta

I really like the Ron Hogan translation. It's lighter on the woo and, y'know, connects. https://terebess.hu/english/tao/ron.html https://terebess.hu/english/tao/ron.html

notarobot123 3y ago
Chapter 42 starts out with some cosmic mumbo-jumbo about Tao making one, one making two, two making three, and three making everything else. I don't know what it means, and, frankly, I wouldn't worry about it too much.
- keyle 3y ago
  Well it is ... Chapter 42... Coincidence? I think not!
- pdw 3y ago
  That's weirdly similar to the alchemical _Axiom of Maria_: "One becomes two, two becomes three, and out of the third comes the one as the fourth." Though the only thing that proves is that mystics all over the world could count to three.
  - t-3 3y ago
    Perhaps the alchemical axiom was influenced by Taoism? The east and west both had roughly contemporaneous periods of alchemical development and lots of known knowledge transfer so it's certainly possible that religious texts associated with a group known for alchemy in the east would end up in some way in the hands of western alchemists.
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    "Though the only thing that proves is that mystics all over the world could count to three." And that they thought about transformation and did not believe that anything is fixed and unchangable (like for example atoms were supposed to be.)
- morelisp 3y ago
  What a disservice. Hogan's writing is, let's say, informal, but it's not really meaningfully lighter on "woo" except in cases where it just refuses to address the text. For someone looking to connect to Western metaphysical traditions I'd recommend rather the Ames & Hall translation; of chapter 42 it says: Way-making (dao) gives rise to continuity, Continuity gives rise to difference, Difference gives rise to plurality, And plurality gives rise to the manifold everything that is happening
  - bravura 3y ago
    I don't know the DDC very well, but this is a beautiful translation. The pattern of 3 comes up often. For example, a "classical" approach to something puts the flag in the ground. A reactionary "modern" approach takes a radical differentiating tack to the classical way. And a "postmodern" tries to reconcile what each camp got right broadly, while acknowledging that no one-size-fits-all objective approach exists.
- olddustytrail 3y ago
  Clearly a reference to defining integers in the lambda calculus.
- akomtu 3y ago
  That's the standard core idea in nearly every religion. For example, a more familiar version of it is: one becomes two (spirit and matter), the two create the third (all things in reality), and the three create everything else. The idea of trinity is the same in principle. There is, in fact, a direct analogy in science: the laws of nature are unreal and immutable (the "spirit"), the essense of matter is hardly real, and when the two meet, all the real things and effects are created (the "third"), but if we look close enough, all three are same law of nature, that appears in different forms.
matthewfelgate 3y ago
Thanks for sharing. This translation reads much better to me.
malermeister 3y ago
To me, this version sounds way too casual. I can see why that would be appealing to some, but it just makes it sound like a hippie on acid trying to be profound.
- bovermyer 3y ago
  Given the Tao idea that the truth that can be spoken is not the truth, is it not possible for both the "hippie on acid trying to be profound" and the articulate scholar-poet to give voice to the same truth through different lenses?
  - malermeister 3y ago
    I'm not denying that. I just personally don't find that particular lens appealing.
  - morelisp 3y ago
    To use the cliché imagery, all empty vessels contain the same thing but not all are equally potent.
    - bovermyer 3y ago
      Nor, perhaps, to the same audiences.
ricardobeat 3y ago
Despite the casual tone, this is so much better: He lowers their aspirations and makes them suck in their guts. He shows people how to forget what they know and what they want, so nobody can push them around. If you think you've got the answers, he'll mess with your head. Versus the dystopian authoritarian version on this page: Thus the governance of the sage: Empties their hearts Fills their bellies Weakens their ambitions Strengthens their bones
- woopsn 3y ago
  I think you came away with the wrong idea based on these examples. The messaging of the Tao Te Ching is very much not straightforward, but it's clear that the weakest governors are authoritarians, and the most effective barely intervene at all.

I really like the Ron Hogan translation. It's lighter on the woo and, y'know, connects. https://terebess.hu/english/tao/ron.html https://terebess.hu/english/tao/ron.html

notarobot123 3y ago

Chapter 42 starts out with some cosmic mumbo-jumbo about Tao making one, one making two, two making three, and three making everything else. I don't know what it means, and, frankly, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

keyle 3y ago
Well it is ... Chapter 42... Coincidence? I think not!
pdw 3y ago
That's weirdly similar to the alchemical _Axiom of Maria_: "One becomes two, two becomes three, and out of the third comes the one as the fourth." Though the only thing that proves is that mystics all over the world could count to three.
- t-3 3y ago
  Perhaps the alchemical axiom was influenced by Taoism? The east and west both had roughly contemporaneous periods of alchemical development and lots of known knowledge transfer so it's certainly possible that religious texts associated with a group known for alchemy in the east would end up in some way in the hands of western alchemists.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  "Though the only thing that proves is that mystics all over the world could count to three." And that they thought about transformation and did not believe that anything is fixed and unchangable (like for example atoms were supposed to be.)
morelisp 3y ago
What a disservice. Hogan's writing is, let's say, informal, but it's not really meaningfully lighter on "woo" except in cases where it just refuses to address the text. For someone looking to connect to Western metaphysical traditions I'd recommend rather the Ames & Hall translation; of chapter 42 it says: Way-making (dao) gives rise to continuity, Continuity gives rise to difference, Difference gives rise to plurality, And plurality gives rise to the manifold everything that is happening
- bravura 3y ago
  I don't know the DDC very well, but this is a beautiful translation. The pattern of 3 comes up often. For example, a "classical" approach to something puts the flag in the ground. A reactionary "modern" approach takes a radical differentiating tack to the classical way. And a "postmodern" tries to reconcile what each camp got right broadly, while acknowledging that no one-size-fits-all objective approach exists.
olddustytrail 3y ago
Clearly a reference to defining integers in the lambda calculus.
akomtu 3y ago
That's the standard core idea in nearly every religion. For example, a more familiar version of it is: one becomes two (spirit and matter), the two create the third (all things in reality), and the three create everything else. The idea of trinity is the same in principle. There is, in fact, a direct analogy in science: the laws of nature are unreal and immutable (the "spirit"), the essense of matter is hardly real, and when the two meet, all the real things and effects are created (the "third"), but if we look close enough, all three are same law of nature, that appears in different forms.

matthewfelgate 3y ago

Thanks for sharing. This translation reads much better to me.

malermeister 3y ago

To me, this version sounds way too casual. I can see why that would be appealing to some, but it just makes it sound like a hippie on acid trying to be profound.

bovermyer 3y ago
Given the Tao idea that the truth that can be spoken is not the truth, is it not possible for both the "hippie on acid trying to be profound" and the articulate scholar-poet to give voice to the same truth through different lenses?
- malermeister 3y ago
  I'm not denying that. I just personally don't find that particular lens appealing.
- morelisp 3y ago
  To use the cliché imagery, all empty vessels contain the same thing but not all are equally potent.
  - bovermyer 3y ago
    Nor, perhaps, to the same audiences.

ricardobeat 3y ago

Despite the casual tone, this is so much better: He lowers their aspirations and makes them suck in their guts. He shows people how to forget what they know and what they want, so nobody can push them around. If you think you've got the answers, he'll mess with your head. Versus the dystopian authoritarian version on this page: Thus the governance of the sage: Empties their hearts Fills their bellies Weakens their ambitions Strengthens their bones

woopsn 3y ago
I think you came away with the wrong idea based on these examples. The messaging of the Tao Te Ching is very much not straightforward, but it's clear that the weakest governors are authoritarians, and the most effective barely intervene at all.