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“The above is the most accurate translation of the ancient classic available anywhere at any price.” Quite a bold statement that immediately makes me very scep

“The above is the most accurate translation of the ancient classic available anywhere at any price.” Quite a bold statement that immediately makes me very sceptical. When reading ancient classics in translation, the wisest approach is comparing multiple translations. Only then a more complete picture will emerge. This website allows one to compare some translations side by side: https://ttc.tasuki.org/display:Code:gff,sm,jc,rh https://ttc.tasuki.org/display:Code:gff,sm,jc,rh With this said, the Tao Te Ching is one of the most astonishing texts to ever be written. It hovers around what I see as an essential truth, pointing at it while intentionally avoiding defining it. Any translation and any form is worth being read. I have recently been reading a new Italian translation of it, by Luigi Maggio and published by Bompiani, and I have been really appreciating its care for the mystic, shamanic origin of the text, and the deep discussions of each translation choice, together with the presence of the original text.

dudefeliciano 3y ago
If you haven't read it yet I can highly recommend the Italian collection of translations by Augusto Shandena Sabbadini (curator), which also provides translations to each individual Chinese character in the book. (btw looks like we commented almost the same thing at the same time.)
keyle 3y ago
It's indeed a big statement coming from the original ideas taken from an ancient language and by some anonymous monk's recounting of the facts. The whole thing is fascinating to me.
- FollowingTheDao 3y ago
  > by some anonymous monk's recounting of the facts The DDC what not written by one person. Laozi just complied old writings from several sources.
  - naremu 3y ago
    It is also worth noting that as of time of writing, the idea of whether or not Laozi was a single person that ever existed is less clear than originally interpreted. One of the translations I've read more recently takes note of how it, and Zhuangzi were likely penned within the same century, and that Chinese culture of the time did not frown upon "borrowing" or "building" upon knowledge bases and presenting them as "yours". Actually kind of an interesting attitude towards communal wells of knowledge compared to many modern attitudes, I think. The Tao Te Ching may technically be the ultimate work of textual "sampling" if there's any truth to it.
    - hosh 3y ago
      It also has to do with how legitimization works within the Chinese culture. Things with lineages and ancestors are more seen as more legitimate, and the Chinese (historically at least) are not above borrowing it. Related is the complex and rich history of Chinese martial arts. If you ask for the oral tradition for any modern school claiming a lineage, it is often founded by a mythical founder — maybe some Shaolin monk, or a Taoist monk. There is a good case that martial art lineages are much more likely to have evolved out of military skills. It does not help that most practitioners were illiterate, and often not well-educated. What I don’t know is if the literate class also borrowed legitimacy. I don’t think they did, because I don’t think they had to.
fnordsensei 3y ago
> It hovers around what I see as an essential truth Yeah, and it opens with basically saying "look, we know that we're going to talk about things ill suited to be captured by language, so keep that it mind"
- scarmig 3y ago
  The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you’ve gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you’ve gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning. Once you’ve gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him?
  - Tao3300 3y ago
    Not me. I'm keeping my traps and my words so I can keep using them tomorrow.
    - rando_dfad 3y ago
      And I'm keeping my trap shut
  - kstenerud 3y ago
    Words are placeholders for meaning. Once you lose the words, you lose the ability to retain the thought with any reliable accuracy due to how our brains work.
    - scarmig 3y ago
      Words are just a lossy inefficient stand-in for a vector embedding database.
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
The problem of language is a common thread in eastern philosophies, and Western Idealist. Language can't express the idea, but Language is the only way to pass the idea to others, but then what others hear is something not quite right and can be misinterpreted, which can lead to problems. Huang Po - Zen Wittgenstein - West
- ysavir 3y ago
  To me, this is one of the most interesting differentiations between western philosophy and eastern philosophy. Western philosophy tries to get around the language problems by writing thick volumes with excruciating detail and pedantry to help their idea get across as accurately as possible. Eastern philosophy tries to get around the language problems with allusion and metaphor, leaning on the reader/listeners own experiences as foundation and trying to help them extrapolate from those experiences. It's a fascinating contrast to me. I can't say with any certainty which delivers better, but I lean towards the eastern approach.
  - jhanschoo 3y ago
    My experience reading ancient Greek philosophy has been indeed that many philosophers use allusion and metaphor and are focused on leading a good life.
    - ysavir 3y ago
      Yeah, the ancients Greeks are a mix. Plato in particular finds a way to do both well. But then with Aristotle we have the foundation of writing to excess. Documentation instead of communication.
  - CitizenKane 3y ago
    To be fair, it's far easier in written Chinese[1] to have allusion and metaphor because of the multifaceted nature of meaning in the characters. For instance, 行 (pronounced xing or haeng in Mandarin) has an absolute laundry list[2] of meanings even though originally it meant an intersection of roads. It's also possible (but to my knowledge less common) to play with the actual character shapes to induce other meanings, or to use replacement characters that are direct (or close) homophones to construct a play on words. The example that immediately pops to mind is the use of "river crabs" (河蟹 or héxiè) to replace "harmonized" (和谐 or héxié) in order to evade censorship. I'd honestly be willing to say that there is no real accurate translation of the Dao de Jing into English. Ancient Chinese commentators (including Confucius) note the difficulty of understanding the Dao de Jing, and they could read and speak the language! Not to say that it's impossible, but it's just extremely difficult to replicate. I look at it as being akin to translating Shakespeare into Mandarin. Even English speakers struggle with Shakespeare and when translated it loses the lyricism and a lot of the underlying meaning. [1] Noting here that when speaking the context will generally make it less ambiguous. Additionally, Mandarin and ancient Chinese at the time of Lao Zi share very little in common phonetically. [2] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%A1%8C https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%A1%8C [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemisms_for_Internet_censorship_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemisms_for_Internet_censor...
FollowingTheDao 3y ago
> This website allows one to compare some translations side by side: https://ttc.tasuki.org/display:Code:gff,sm,jc,rh https://ttc.tasuki.org/display:Code:gff,sm,jc,rh Most of those are not translations from Chinese, they are interpretations from already translated Chinese texts. > With this said, the Tao Te Ching is one of the most astonishing texts to ever be written. It hovers around what I see as an essential truth, pointing at it while intentionally avoiding defining it. Any translation and any form is worth being read. I agree.
mkovach 3y ago
Frankly, I found this "translation" the best: https://aui.me/text/the-dude-de-ching/ https://aui.me/text/the-dude-de-ching/ ,but Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, my opinion, man.
- otherdave 3y ago
  Is this your homework, mkovach?
sentimentscan 3y ago
Can you recommend something similar to tao the ching? I don't mean anything like tao of pooh/new age stuff/alan watts, but similar in the spirit of tao.
- dudefeliciano 3y ago
  Not OP but "Wandering on the Way" is a great collection of later daoist writings https://www.google.de/books/edition/Wandering_on_the_Way/dpFnYhV_ghIC?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover https://www.google.de/books/edition/Wandering_on_the_Way/dpF...
- tralarpa 3y ago
  The Heart Sutra, an extremely condensed version of core Buddhist teaching. But, in my opinion, such texts are useless without explanations. Bernie Glassman explains it in the book "Infinite Circle: Teachings in Zen".
- 5cott0 3y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuangzi_(book) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuangzi_(book)
- driggs 3y ago
  The obvious second book to read after Laozi is Zhuangzi (Chuang-Tzu). His book is a joy to read, full of humor and anecdotes, where Laozi's reads like cryptic poetry. Both books describe a common worldview of harmonious living with the natural world, from complementary perspectives. I personally recommend Burton Watson's translation of Zhuangzi.
  - juris 3y ago
    Seconding this-- and I can recommend the Merton translation. Great for late night reading, or if you are feeling especially unsettled.
  - mcguire 3y ago
    I personally like Angus Graham's translation, Chuang-tzu: The Seven Inner Chapters and Other Writings from the Book Chuang-tzu, as well as his essays on it, A Companion to Angus C. Graham’s Chuang Tzu. For one thing, it gave me some significant sympathy for analytic philosophy for the first time.
tomcar288 3y ago
personally, i can only extract so much meaning from the text itself without rely on experts and explanations. i find it helpful to have it interpretted as well by people like Jason gregory.
mbivert 3y ago
FWIW, I've wrote a tool to help translate from Chinese on a per-word basis using open ressources (dictionaries, decomposition table, etc.). In particular, it helps to recover some of the information lost when translating from Chinese. It's a personal project for now, so some things are still rough (e.g. no way to add new books, and I haven't bothered with the Tao Te Ching yet). You can see how it works on the San Zi Jing here[0]. If some of you are interested or have any questions, don't hesitate to reach out; my email should be on the "about" page. [0]: https://zhongmu.eu/trbook.html#c=1;w=6;b=san-zi-jing https://zhongmu.eu/trbook.html#c=1;w=6;b=san-zi-jing
LiquidSky 3y ago
>When reading ancient classics in translation, the wisest approach is comparing multiple translations. Only then a more complete picture will emerge. But if I can't read the original ancient Chinese, what good does comparing the translations do? I can tell which ones read better to me, but I have no idea if any of them are actually accurate.
- ethanbond 3y ago
  I think the idea is that "the real content" will be nearest where all the translations have consensus. Aberrational translations are quickly discounted this way. Even the single best translation will probably be worse than reading the top three best translations since translation is as much an art as a science.
- woopsn 3y ago
  So right at the beginning it says this -- you can talk about Tao, but not the eternal Tao[1]. From a philosophy perspective, it is a good idea to read different versions because there isn't really a "right way to put it". This kind of Taoism is meant to make you think and relate to the universe in a certain way. If you're more interested in studying an authentic version of the text though, almost all of the English "translations" are inadequate and misleading. This was a book about dynastic China. The oldest sources appear to have been compiled from multiple sources themselves, and then underwent further revision, eg the order of Tao and Te was probably reversed at some point, the text became less regionally specific as it traveled across China, acquired different vocabulary and grammar, was appropriated by Confucians, separated into chapters, etc. So in this sense it's interesting to read multiple translations and analysis. To get the full picture you have to consider the sinology around the text too. [1] John C. H. Wu's translation: https://terebess.hu/english/tao/wu.html#Kap01 https://terebess.hu/english/tao/wu.html#Kap01
- z2 3y ago
  Not to make it sound hopeless, but Old Chinese is lossy because it tended to favor conciseness at the expense of unambiguous clarity. There is no total truth and a bit of subjective interpretation is required. 持而盈之 for instance is "持=hold 而=yet 盈=overflow 之=[implied subject or this]" while the translator decided to add a cup, writing "Holding a cup and overfilling it." It's a great assumption as 盈 has the etymology of a vessel being filled, but still an assumption nonetheless.
dheera 3y ago
Not any different from a potato chip brand claiming themsleves as the best tasting. They do this because consumers fall for this crap, collectively encouraging the behavior. If they said "we think it's the best translation but you should read multiple and decide for yourselves", they wouldn't make it to the top of news sites.
prox 3y ago
I currently learn from a master in a living lineage of Shifu and you get so much context from that than “just” reading the text. You also get the living reality of the text which is beneficial.
kstenerud 3y ago
[flagged]
- skribanto 3y ago
  These virtues are promoted by Christianity as well
  - autokad 3y ago
    no, it only states that you shouldn't be greedy or envious of other people's things. That's a far cry from 'you shouldn't have any things at all'. ambition is fine, so long as it doesn't distract you from god - and god is in everything including yourself, so what its really saying is dont let anything distract you from yourself. don't do anything that is against 'you'.
- autokad 3y ago
  agree 100%. I had to read it, and to be honest I found little wisdom in it. To add on to your list, you could tell they had distain for people who travel or wanted to do new things.
hosh 3y ago
There is a lot missing in any translation of the Dao De Jing, because nothing really captures the various layers of meanings from the original. There are also some meanings that are made clear with realizations and gnosis (for the lack of a better term). One of my favorite is Ursula K Le Guin’s rendering. Her version captures some of the poetry that I rarely find in more straightforward translation.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
tasuki 3y ago
> This website allows one to compare some translations side by side: > https://ttc.tasuki.org/display:Code:gff,sm,jc,rh https://ttc.tasuki.org/display:Code:gff,sm,jc,rh Hey that's my website! Thanks for linking :)

dudefeliciano 3y ago

If you haven't read it yet I can highly recommend the Italian collection of translations by Augusto Shandena Sabbadini (curator), which also provides translations to each individual Chinese character in the book. (btw looks like we commented almost the same thing at the same time.)

keyle 3y ago

It's indeed a big statement coming from the original ideas taken from an ancient language and by some anonymous monk's recounting of the facts. The whole thing is fascinating to me.

FollowingTheDao 3y ago
> by some anonymous monk's recounting of the facts The DDC what not written by one person. Laozi just complied old writings from several sources.
- naremu 3y ago
  It is also worth noting that as of time of writing, the idea of whether or not Laozi was a single person that ever existed is less clear than originally interpreted. One of the translations I've read more recently takes note of how it, and Zhuangzi were likely penned within the same century, and that Chinese culture of the time did not frown upon "borrowing" or "building" upon knowledge bases and presenting them as "yours". Actually kind of an interesting attitude towards communal wells of knowledge compared to many modern attitudes, I think. The Tao Te Ching may technically be the ultimate work of textual "sampling" if there's any truth to it.
  - hosh 3y ago
    It also has to do with how legitimization works within the Chinese culture. Things with lineages and ancestors are more seen as more legitimate, and the Chinese (historically at least) are not above borrowing it. Related is the complex and rich history of Chinese martial arts. If you ask for the oral tradition for any modern school claiming a lineage, it is often founded by a mythical founder — maybe some Shaolin monk, or a Taoist monk. There is a good case that martial art lineages are much more likely to have evolved out of military skills. It does not help that most practitioners were illiterate, and often not well-educated. What I don’t know is if the literate class also borrowed legitimacy. I don’t think they did, because I don’t think they had to.

fnordsensei 3y ago

> It hovers around what I see as an essential truth Yeah, and it opens with basically saying "look, we know that we're going to talk about things ill suited to be captured by language, so keep that it mind"

scarmig 3y ago
The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you’ve gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you’ve gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning. Once you’ve gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him?
- Tao3300 3y ago
  Not me. I'm keeping my traps and my words so I can keep using them tomorrow.
  - rando_dfad 3y ago
    And I'm keeping my trap shut
- kstenerud 3y ago
  Words are placeholders for meaning. Once you lose the words, you lose the ability to retain the thought with any reliable accuracy due to how our brains work.
  - scarmig 3y ago
    Words are just a lossy inefficient stand-in for a vector embedding database.

FrustratedMonky 3y ago

The problem of language is a common thread in eastern philosophies, and Western Idealist. Language can't express the idea, but Language is the only way to pass the idea to others, but then what others hear is something not quite right and can be misinterpreted, which can lead to problems. Huang Po - Zen Wittgenstein - West

ysavir 3y ago
To me, this is one of the most interesting differentiations between western philosophy and eastern philosophy. Western philosophy tries to get around the language problems by writing thick volumes with excruciating detail and pedantry to help their idea get across as accurately as possible. Eastern philosophy tries to get around the language problems with allusion and metaphor, leaning on the reader/listeners own experiences as foundation and trying to help them extrapolate from those experiences. It's a fascinating contrast to me. I can't say with any certainty which delivers better, but I lean towards the eastern approach.
- jhanschoo 3y ago
  My experience reading ancient Greek philosophy has been indeed that many philosophers use allusion and metaphor and are focused on leading a good life.
  - ysavir 3y ago
    Yeah, the ancients Greeks are a mix. Plato in particular finds a way to do both well. But then with Aristotle we have the foundation of writing to excess. Documentation instead of communication.
- CitizenKane 3y ago
  To be fair, it's far easier in written Chinese[1] to have allusion and metaphor because of the multifaceted nature of meaning in the characters. For instance, 行 (pronounced xing or haeng in Mandarin) has an absolute laundry list[2] of meanings even though originally it meant an intersection of roads. It's also possible (but to my knowledge less common) to play with the actual character shapes to induce other meanings, or to use replacement characters that are direct (or close) homophones to construct a play on words. The example that immediately pops to mind is the use of "river crabs" (河蟹 or héxiè) to replace "harmonized" (和谐 or héxié) in order to evade censorship. I'd honestly be willing to say that there is no real accurate translation of the Dao de Jing into English. Ancient Chinese commentators (including Confucius) note the difficulty of understanding the Dao de Jing, and they could read and speak the language! Not to say that it's impossible, but it's just extremely difficult to replicate. I look at it as being akin to translating Shakespeare into Mandarin. Even English speakers struggle with Shakespeare and when translated it loses the lyricism and a lot of the underlying meaning. [1] Noting here that when speaking the context will generally make it less ambiguous. Additionally, Mandarin and ancient Chinese at the time of Lao Zi share very little in common phonetically. [2] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%A1%8C https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%A1%8C [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemisms_for_Internet_censorship_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemisms_for_Internet_censor...

FollowingTheDao 3y ago

> This website allows one to compare some translations side by side: https://ttc.tasuki.org/display:Code:gff,sm,jc,rh https://ttc.tasuki.org/display:Code:gff,sm,jc,rh Most of those are not translations from Chinese, they are interpretations from already translated Chinese texts. > With this said, the Tao Te Ching is one of the most astonishing texts to ever be written. It hovers around what I see as an essential truth, pointing at it while intentionally avoiding defining it. Any translation and any form is worth being read. I agree.

mkovach 3y ago

Frankly, I found this "translation" the best: https://aui.me/text/the-dude-de-ching/ https://aui.me/text/the-dude-de-ching/ ,but Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, my opinion, man.

otherdave 3y ago
Is this your homework, mkovach?

sentimentscan 3y ago

Can you recommend something similar to tao the ching? I don't mean anything like tao of pooh/new age stuff/alan watts, but similar in the spirit of tao.

dudefeliciano 3y ago
Not OP but "Wandering on the Way" is a great collection of later daoist writings https://www.google.de/books/edition/Wandering_on_the_Way/dpFnYhV_ghIC?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover https://www.google.de/books/edition/Wandering_on_the_Way/dpF...
tralarpa 3y ago
The Heart Sutra, an extremely condensed version of core Buddhist teaching. But, in my opinion, such texts are useless without explanations. Bernie Glassman explains it in the book "Infinite Circle: Teachings in Zen".
5cott0 3y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuangzi_(book) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuangzi_(book)
driggs 3y ago
The obvious second book to read after Laozi is Zhuangzi (Chuang-Tzu). His book is a joy to read, full of humor and anecdotes, where Laozi's reads like cryptic poetry. Both books describe a common worldview of harmonious living with the natural world, from complementary perspectives. I personally recommend Burton Watson's translation of Zhuangzi.
- juris 3y ago
  Seconding this-- and I can recommend the Merton translation. Great for late night reading, or if you are feeling especially unsettled.
- mcguire 3y ago
  I personally like Angus Graham's translation, Chuang-tzu: The Seven Inner Chapters and Other Writings from the Book Chuang-tzu, as well as his essays on it, A Companion to Angus C. Graham’s Chuang Tzu. For one thing, it gave me some significant sympathy for analytic philosophy for the first time.

tomcar288 3y ago

personally, i can only extract so much meaning from the text itself without rely on experts and explanations. i find it helpful to have it interpretted as well by people like Jason gregory.

mbivert 3y ago

FWIW, I've wrote a tool to help translate from Chinese on a per-word basis using open ressources (dictionaries, decomposition table, etc.). In particular, it helps to recover some of the information lost when translating from Chinese. It's a personal project for now, so some things are still rough (e.g. no way to add new books, and I haven't bothered with the Tao Te Ching yet). You can see how it works on the San Zi Jing here[0]. If some of you are interested or have any questions, don't hesitate to reach out; my email should be on the "about" page. [0]: https://zhongmu.eu/trbook.html#c=1;w=6;b=san-zi-jing https://zhongmu.eu/trbook.html#c=1;w=6;b=san-zi-jing

LiquidSky 3y ago

>When reading ancient classics in translation, the wisest approach is comparing multiple translations. Only then a more complete picture will emerge. But if I can't read the original ancient Chinese, what good does comparing the translations do? I can tell which ones read better to me, but I have no idea if any of them are actually accurate.

ethanbond 3y ago
I think the idea is that "the real content" will be nearest where all the translations have consensus. Aberrational translations are quickly discounted this way. Even the single best translation will probably be worse than reading the top three best translations since translation is as much an art as a science.
woopsn 3y ago
So right at the beginning it says this -- you can talk about Tao, but not the eternal Tao[1]. From a philosophy perspective, it is a good idea to read different versions because there isn't really a "right way to put it". This kind of Taoism is meant to make you think and relate to the universe in a certain way. If you're more interested in studying an authentic version of the text though, almost all of the English "translations" are inadequate and misleading. This was a book about dynastic China. The oldest sources appear to have been compiled from multiple sources themselves, and then underwent further revision, eg the order of Tao and Te was probably reversed at some point, the text became less regionally specific as it traveled across China, acquired different vocabulary and grammar, was appropriated by Confucians, separated into chapters, etc. So in this sense it's interesting to read multiple translations and analysis. To get the full picture you have to consider the sinology around the text too. [1] John C. H. Wu's translation: https://terebess.hu/english/tao/wu.html#Kap01 https://terebess.hu/english/tao/wu.html#Kap01
z2 3y ago
Not to make it sound hopeless, but Old Chinese is lossy because it tended to favor conciseness at the expense of unambiguous clarity. There is no total truth and a bit of subjective interpretation is required. 持而盈之 for instance is "持=hold 而=yet 盈=overflow 之=[implied subject or this]" while the translator decided to add a cup, writing "Holding a cup and overfilling it." It's a great assumption as 盈 has the etymology of a vessel being filled, but still an assumption nonetheless.

dheera 3y ago

Not any different from a potato chip brand claiming themsleves as the best tasting. They do this because consumers fall for this crap, collectively encouraging the behavior. If they said "we think it's the best translation but you should read multiple and decide for yourselves", they wouldn't make it to the top of news sites.

prox 3y ago

I currently learn from a master in a living lineage of Shifu and you get so much context from that than “just” reading the text. You also get the living reality of the text which is beneficial.

kstenerud 3y ago

[flagged]

skribanto 3y ago
These virtues are promoted by Christianity as well
- autokad 3y ago
  no, it only states that you shouldn't be greedy or envious of other people's things. That's a far cry from 'you shouldn't have any things at all'. ambition is fine, so long as it doesn't distract you from god - and god is in everything including yourself, so what its really saying is dont let anything distract you from yourself. don't do anything that is against 'you'.
autokad 3y ago
agree 100%. I had to read it, and to be honest I found little wisdom in it. To add on to your list, you could tell they had distain for people who travel or wanted to do new things.

hosh 3y ago

There is a lot missing in any translation of the Dao De Jing, because nothing really captures the various layers of meanings from the original. There are also some meanings that are made clear with realizations and gnosis (for the lack of a better term). One of my favorite is Ursula K Le Guin’s rendering. Her version captures some of the poetry that I rarely find in more straightforward translation.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

tasuki 3y ago

> This website allows one to compare some translations side by side: > https://ttc.tasuki.org/display:Code:gff,sm,jc,rh https://ttc.tasuki.org/display:Code:gff,sm,jc,rh Hey that's my website! Thanks for linking :)