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> “Consider a future device ... in which an individual stores all his books, records, and communications, and which is mechanized so that it may be consulted wi

by bmitc 3y ago

> “Consider a future device ... in which an individual stores all his books, records, and communications, and which is mechanized so that it may be consulted with exceeding speed and flexibility. It is an enlarged intimate supplement to his memory.” Incredibly prescient until the last sentence. In aggregate, we have foregone the supplementary nature of technology to humans, as it is now humans that supplement technology.

kawhah 3y ago
Why do you say this? The fundamental nature of carrying smartphones with us seems to me to be that we genuinely are able to explore and enjoy culture, shared experiences and knowledge in a completely new and powerful way. Of course, there are aspects of exploitation, surveillance and manipulation. But are they really more essential to the experience of internet technology than the huge possibilities that they have opened up?
- memefrog 3y ago
  [dead]
- nonrandomstring 3y ago
  > Of course, there are aspects of exploitation, surveillance and manipulation. But are they really more essential to the experience of internet technology than the huge possibilities that they have opened up? A great question. Unfortunately today, I think they are. What I see as the principle difference between the Zeitgeist of 1945 and the spirit of 2023 is our relation to struggle. By '45 we'd probably realised that the war had tipped toward Allied victory. From then until perhaps the 1970s we were possessed of a mind that "Things are worth fighting for", and that science and technology are a struggle "towards good". We had not yet processed Auschwitz, Dachau and Belsen. Cold-war notwithstanding, not only was the wonder of science on a heady incline, the fruits were magnificent, benevolent and cheaply available to all, from the highway to the boardroom to the kitchen. There's the "dream". Not only were we the benefactors of technology, but we were in control of it. Today I find I must agree with David Graeber and Peter Thiel, that Francis Fukuyama's conceit of the "End of History" has seeped infectiously into the Western mind and extinguished optimism. One of the things we must urgently fight - and it is as "worth fighting for" as ever - is the re-emergence tyrannical abuse through technology, and therefore to keep it in balance as a beneficent force. Looking through these pages I'd say that sadly most of us, perhaps numbed by convenience and complacency, have lost the will for that fight.
  - thr_qst 3y ago
    On the contrary, they knew exactly what the concentration camps were. It's is us today that have no idea. Ask anyone in the west how many people died in the holocaust and they will tell you 6 million. Half the number. We don't count the other half and celebrate the people who killed Russians and Poles: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/09/25/lapr-s25.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/09/25/lapr-s25.html
    - gregw2 3y ago
      My grandfather, who devoted his life to nonprofit work, liberated concentrations camps firsthand as a US Army officer, and observed in his later years how common it was for people to remember the six million Jews who died but forget the six million Poles. (The crime of antisemitic genocide is very very great, but if you doubt the Polish suffering, recall that the cry for “Leibensraum” was not purely or even primarily about the Jews, but it was undertaken with great military force, right?) I have had a hard time independently verifying the Polish numbers to even share them with others so I agree the west ignorance on this runs deep.
  - onetokeoverthe 3y ago
    [dead]
lioeters 3y ago
I think it was in the book Dream Machine, mentioned elsewhere in the thread, where it described that there were largely two different philosophies of the relationship between the human and the machine/computer. One was "augmenting the human intellect", where technology serves to extend human abilities. The other was - if I recall correctly - cybernetics, where the human serves as part of a larger mechanical system. I might be remembering it wrong though.
- nairboon 3y ago
  I think Cybernetics was more like the primordial AI. But it was also expanded to study even larger systems like a collection of interacting agents like humans.
- ReactiveJelly 3y ago
  "If the user does not fully control the software, then the software controls the user."
- bmitc 3y ago
  I need to finish reading that book. But there's also Weiner's The Human Use of Human Beings which I think tries to address the human side of cybernetics.

by bmitc 3y ago

kawhah 3y ago

Why do you say this? The fundamental nature of carrying smartphones with us seems to me to be that we genuinely are able to explore and enjoy culture, shared experiences and knowledge in a completely new and powerful way. Of course, there are aspects of exploitation, surveillance and manipulation. But are they really more essential to the experience of internet technology than the huge possibilities that they have opened up?

memefrog 3y ago
[dead]
nonrandomstring 3y ago
> Of course, there are aspects of exploitation, surveillance and manipulation. But are they really more essential to the experience of internet technology than the huge possibilities that they have opened up? A great question. Unfortunately today, I think they are. What I see as the principle difference between the Zeitgeist of 1945 and the spirit of 2023 is our relation to struggle. By '45 we'd probably realised that the war had tipped toward Allied victory. From then until perhaps the 1970s we were possessed of a mind that "Things are worth fighting for", and that science and technology are a struggle "towards good". We had not yet processed Auschwitz, Dachau and Belsen. Cold-war notwithstanding, not only was the wonder of science on a heady incline, the fruits were magnificent, benevolent and cheaply available to all, from the highway to the boardroom to the kitchen. There's the "dream". Not only were we the benefactors of technology, but we were in control of it. Today I find I must agree with David Graeber and Peter Thiel, that Francis Fukuyama's conceit of the "End of History" has seeped infectiously into the Western mind and extinguished optimism. One of the things we must urgently fight - and it is as "worth fighting for" as ever - is the re-emergence tyrannical abuse through technology, and therefore to keep it in balance as a beneficent force. Looking through these pages I'd say that sadly most of us, perhaps numbed by convenience and complacency, have lost the will for that fight.
- thr_qst 3y ago
  On the contrary, they knew exactly what the concentration camps were. It's is us today that have no idea. Ask anyone in the west how many people died in the holocaust and they will tell you 6 million. Half the number. We don't count the other half and celebrate the people who killed Russians and Poles: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/09/25/lapr-s25.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/09/25/lapr-s25.html
  - gregw2 3y ago
    My grandfather, who devoted his life to nonprofit work, liberated concentrations camps firsthand as a US Army officer, and observed in his later years how common it was for people to remember the six million Jews who died but forget the six million Poles. (The crime of antisemitic genocide is very very great, but if you doubt the Polish suffering, recall that the cry for “Leibensraum” was not purely or even primarily about the Jews, but it was undertaken with great military force, right?) I have had a hard time independently verifying the Polish numbers to even share them with others so I agree the west ignorance on this runs deep.
- onetokeoverthe 3y ago
  [dead]

lioeters 3y ago

I think it was in the book Dream Machine, mentioned elsewhere in the thread, where it described that there were largely two different philosophies of the relationship between the human and the machine/computer. One was "augmenting the human intellect", where technology serves to extend human abilities. The other was - if I recall correctly - cybernetics, where the human serves as part of a larger mechanical system. I might be remembering it wrong though.

nairboon 3y ago
I think Cybernetics was more like the primordial AI. But it was also expanded to study even larger systems like a collection of interacting agents like humans.
ReactiveJelly 3y ago
"If the user does not fully control the software, then the software controls the user."
bmitc 3y ago
I need to finish reading that book. But there's also Weiner's The Human Use of Human Beings which I think tries to address the human side of cybernetics.