7 ms·

Five generations in and it finally gets radical features such as: - a power button - a real time clock Crazy it took this long but finally, seriously. Downs

Five generations in and it finally gets radical features such as: - a power button - a real time clock Crazy it took this long but finally, seriously. Downsides here are that it might need more active cooling whereas previous generations worked without it. Also, ugh: > Gigabit Ethernet, with PoE+ support (requires separate PoE+ HAT)

m463 3y ago
> Gigabit Ethernet, with PoE+ support (requires separate PoE+ HAT) isn't this just like the 4?
- lloydatkinson 3y ago
  Just a shame they didn’t add actual POE without extra hardware.
  - geerlingguy 3y ago
    PoE requires a few beefy components that would blow the board size (and BOM) up quite a bit, for a feature probably only 10-20% of users require. I'm happy with a separate accessory, but wish they could've kept compatibility with the previous versions.
    - markonen 3y ago
      The idea that even 10-20% of users would power their Pis with PoE seems wild to me. Seems like a much smaller niche to me (even though I'm one of those people). Anyway, I have been wondering whether a headless-oriented SKU wouldn't make sense. Pay for the PoE BOM by jettisoning the video output.
      - mrweasel 3y ago
        I'm really surprised that PoE isn't more prevalent that is currently the case, but I guess it's because most people prefer WiFi devices. I'd add network jacks to everything and remove the power plugs if the option was presented. Most "normal" people seem to be the other way around. "Wireless" speakers (they'd be networks speakers then) / home assistant devices / media players and whatever else should always be attached with a network cable, so just power them over PoE. I'm still annoying that the AppleTV isn't PoE enabled. That's not a device I'd use over WiFi anyway.
        skywal_l 3y ago
        > I'd add network jacks to everything and remove the power plugs if the option was presented. You could always use PLC to use your eletrical network as a data network. I use that for IP cameras. Unfortunately, I still haven't found a PCL adapter providing PoE power.
        m463 3y ago
        I think real POE is kind of heavyweight. It uses higher voltage like 37-57 volts and the pi poe hats I've seen usually have fans. I've used "informal" poe where you have a cheap injector/splitter that puts a nonstandard lower voltage over the ethernet. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NRHNPUA https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NRHNPUA but real poe is getting more popular, poe switches are becoming available and maybe the hat is worth it. There are also middle-of-the-road solutions: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TJ3ZNJ4 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TJ3ZNJ4 basically poe splitter that has a usb-c power out for the pi
        stavros 3y ago
        The option isn't presented for me. My flat has plenty of power outlets but no Ethernet ones, and that's ~100% of the houses I've seen.
      - rewmie 3y ago
        > The idea that even 10-20% of users would power their Pis with PoE seems wild to me. Seems like a much smaller niche to me (even though I'm one of those people). I'd be surprised if the majority of RPi's userbase didn't used PoE. Having to cart around a power supply isn't a very attractive option when all you have to do to power the device is simply plugging in a yank-proof RJ45 cable. It's also cheaper as you don't have to buy a charger.
        ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
        I've contemplated trying PoE for powering RPis, but just the HAT alone is more than the official power supply, so it's hardly cheaper and that's not even figuring in the extra cost of PoE network equipment.
      - flyinghamster 3y ago
        I think that's what the Compute Module is for. Put it on a breakout board with just the I/O you need, and away you go.
      - skywal_l 3y ago
        > The idea that even 10-20% of users would power their Pis with PoE seems wild to me I actually though it was the other way around. Having the PI powers other devices like IP cameras.
    - Narishma 3y ago
      More like 1 or 2%.
- dheera 3y ago
  I tried 2 different HATs and they fried two Pi 4s. I gave up on it. I won't do PoE without reliable official hardware.
  - flyinghamster 3y ago
    I've been powering a Pi 4 for several years now with the official PoE hat (edit: not PoE+), without any problems (other than that the fan is starting to get noisy).
peteforde 3y ago
I've gone to unholy ends to syncronize large herds of Pis using a patched NTP server and several other dirty tricks. The RTC is a huge deal to the people who care about it.
- dogma1138 3y ago
  Won’t you still need an NTP or a GPS time module unless the RTC has a battery backup? How many applications would you have where timing is critical but you won’t have an external time reference that would be still viable without a guaranteed power backup?
  - peteforde 3y ago
    Nobody said anything about not having NTP in the loop! Here's the deal: RPi<5 runs at the speed of the voltage coming in. The OS creates a fake software clock that assumes it's a perfect 5v, but in reality not only does voltage fluctuate, it drops over the length of a cable run. If you have, I dunno, 70 Pis connected, the 5v on the first one is very different than the 5v on the last one, no matter how frequently you ask NTP to broadcast. The first thing we did was deliver 12V down the wire with a high quality power supply. Then we used UBEC buck converter modules (intended for RC quadcopters) to deliver power directly into the Pi via its pins. However, even now you're just chasing physics. There's no way to send a command to all of the Pis to do something right now. Instead, we tell all of them to do something at a very precise moment in about three seconds. In our case, this meant writing a very low-level C program to listen for raw UDP messages and trigger the camera module at the hardware register level. The only way to verify that it was working as well as we believed it did was to create a reference clock. We had a friend build a 20 LED timer that would count 10ms and 1ms increments. We achieved < 1ms syncronization across 70 Pis in this manner.
    - uxp8u61q 3y ago
      I may be completely off base here, but maybe the rpi wasn't the best tool for the project then? What was it, if I may ask?
yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
All I want is UEFI so we can stop having per-device images. Is that so much to ask?
- dmitrygr 3y ago
  rPI went from armv6 to armv7 to armv8. CortexA76 does not even support using 32 bit kernels. Rp1 requires an armv6 32 bit kernel. There is NO kernel build on earth that would run on both an pi1 and a pi5 and no amount of efi would help. (I am ignoring the possibility of custom nasty hacks to make a polyglot kernel). We’ll have per-device images until we standardize on a single architecture or at least a subset of one. And no, you really wouldn’t want a lowest common denominator build anyways. That would leave a lot on the table.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
    Yeah, I can live with images per architecture; the problem is needing an image specifically for the pi. I want the same thing as we get on x86; sure, there are separate images for i686 and x86_64, but there's not one image for Dell and one for HP and one for Lenovo and...
    - dmitrygr 3y ago
      Well, now that the latest rPi is on the latest ARM arch, it might be possible for future rPis, unless ARM goes and changes the arch around in an incompatible way.
      - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
        That's beside the point; you can build a UEFI bootloader for at least as far back as the Pi 3, but you have to stick it on an SD card because there's no on-board memory to hold it. I mostly just want enough flash built in to hold it.
        dmitrygr 3y ago
globular-toast 3y ago
I liked that the Pi lacked features that were taken for granted. Made you think about things in a different way. Now it's just the same as everything else and much less about learning and education.
fransje26 3y ago
And let's go completely radical. Does it get proper video drivers?
knallfrosch 3y ago
Everyone wants their features in, but the Pi to be $40. That just doesn't work.
- 2Gkashmiri 3y ago
  moore's law should apply so why wouldn't it work?
  - KaiserPro 3y ago
    Because moore's law is a proxy for RnD for an entire industry. if you want cutting edge features, you need to pay for them. raspberrypi is about value engineering. Making stuff fast and cheap enough so that you can do useful work, but not worry too much if you break it (on the one hand) Or give access to someone who's never had a programmable computer for a price that's cheaper than most mid range lego sets.
znpy 3y ago
> Downsides here are that it might need more active cooling whereas previous generations worked without it. peak power usage also raised to 25W, as now a 5W/5A psu is required. But in the end... features require power, we can't really complain much.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

m463 3y ago

> Gigabit Ethernet, with PoE+ support (requires separate PoE+ HAT) isn't this just like the 4?

lloydatkinson 3y ago
Just a shame they didn’t add actual POE without extra hardware.
- geerlingguy 3y ago
  PoE requires a few beefy components that would blow the board size (and BOM) up quite a bit, for a feature probably only 10-20% of users require. I'm happy with a separate accessory, but wish they could've kept compatibility with the previous versions.
  - markonen 3y ago
    The idea that even 10-20% of users would power their Pis with PoE seems wild to me. Seems like a much smaller niche to me (even though I'm one of those people). Anyway, I have been wondering whether a headless-oriented SKU wouldn't make sense. Pay for the PoE BOM by jettisoning the video output.
    - mrweasel 3y ago
      I'm really surprised that PoE isn't more prevalent that is currently the case, but I guess it's because most people prefer WiFi devices. I'd add network jacks to everything and remove the power plugs if the option was presented. Most "normal" people seem to be the other way around. "Wireless" speakers (they'd be networks speakers then) / home assistant devices / media players and whatever else should always be attached with a network cable, so just power them over PoE. I'm still annoying that the AppleTV isn't PoE enabled. That's not a device I'd use over WiFi anyway.
      - skywal_l 3y ago
        > I'd add network jacks to everything and remove the power plugs if the option was presented. You could always use PLC to use your eletrical network as a data network. I use that for IP cameras. Unfortunately, I still haven't found a PCL adapter providing PoE power.
      - m463 3y ago
        I think real POE is kind of heavyweight. It uses higher voltage like 37-57 volts and the pi poe hats I've seen usually have fans. I've used "informal" poe where you have a cheap injector/splitter that puts a nonstandard lower voltage over the ethernet. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NRHNPUA https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NRHNPUA but real poe is getting more popular, poe switches are becoming available and maybe the hat is worth it. There are also middle-of-the-road solutions: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TJ3ZNJ4 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TJ3ZNJ4 basically poe splitter that has a usb-c power out for the pi
      - stavros 3y ago
        The option isn't presented for me. My flat has plenty of power outlets but no Ethernet ones, and that's ~100% of the houses I've seen.
    - rewmie 3y ago
      > The idea that even 10-20% of users would power their Pis with PoE seems wild to me. Seems like a much smaller niche to me (even though I'm one of those people). I'd be surprised if the majority of RPi's userbase didn't used PoE. Having to cart around a power supply isn't a very attractive option when all you have to do to power the device is simply plugging in a yank-proof RJ45 cable. It's also cheaper as you don't have to buy a charger.
      - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
        I've contemplated trying PoE for powering RPis, but just the HAT alone is more than the official power supply, so it's hardly cheaper and that's not even figuring in the extra cost of PoE network equipment.
    - flyinghamster 3y ago
      I think that's what the Compute Module is for. Put it on a breakout board with just the I/O you need, and away you go.
    - skywal_l 3y ago
      > The idea that even 10-20% of users would power their Pis with PoE seems wild to me I actually though it was the other way around. Having the PI powers other devices like IP cameras.
  - Narishma 3y ago
    More like 1 or 2%.
dheera 3y ago
I tried 2 different HATs and they fried two Pi 4s. I gave up on it. I won't do PoE without reliable official hardware.
- flyinghamster 3y ago
  I've been powering a Pi 4 for several years now with the official PoE hat (edit: not PoE+), without any problems (other than that the fan is starting to get noisy).

peteforde 3y ago

I've gone to unholy ends to syncronize large herds of Pis using a patched NTP server and several other dirty tricks. The RTC is a huge deal to the people who care about it.

dogma1138 3y ago
Won’t you still need an NTP or a GPS time module unless the RTC has a battery backup? How many applications would you have where timing is critical but you won’t have an external time reference that would be still viable without a guaranteed power backup?
- peteforde 3y ago
  Nobody said anything about not having NTP in the loop! Here's the deal: RPi<5 runs at the speed of the voltage coming in. The OS creates a fake software clock that assumes it's a perfect 5v, but in reality not only does voltage fluctuate, it drops over the length of a cable run. If you have, I dunno, 70 Pis connected, the 5v on the first one is very different than the 5v on the last one, no matter how frequently you ask NTP to broadcast. The first thing we did was deliver 12V down the wire with a high quality power supply. Then we used UBEC buck converter modules (intended for RC quadcopters) to deliver power directly into the Pi via its pins. However, even now you're just chasing physics. There's no way to send a command to all of the Pis to do something right now. Instead, we tell all of them to do something at a very precise moment in about three seconds. In our case, this meant writing a very low-level C program to listen for raw UDP messages and trigger the camera module at the hardware register level. The only way to verify that it was working as well as we believed it did was to create a reference clock. We had a friend build a 20 LED timer that would count 10ms and 1ms increments. We achieved < 1ms syncronization across 70 Pis in this manner.
  - uxp8u61q 3y ago
    I may be completely off base here, but maybe the rpi wasn't the best tool for the project then? What was it, if I may ask?

yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago

All I want is UEFI so we can stop having per-device images. Is that so much to ask?

dmitrygr 3y ago
rPI went from armv6 to armv7 to armv8. CortexA76 does not even support using 32 bit kernels. Rp1 requires an armv6 32 bit kernel. There is NO kernel build on earth that would run on both an pi1 and a pi5 and no amount of efi would help. (I am ignoring the possibility of custom nasty hacks to make a polyglot kernel). We’ll have per-device images until we standardize on a single architecture or at least a subset of one. And no, you really wouldn’t want a lowest common denominator build anyways. That would leave a lot on the table.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  Yeah, I can live with images per architecture; the problem is needing an image specifically for the pi. I want the same thing as we get on x86; sure, there are separate images for i686 and x86_64, but there's not one image for Dell and one for HP and one for Lenovo and...
  - dmitrygr 3y ago
    Well, now that the latest rPi is on the latest ARM arch, it might be possible for future rPis, unless ARM goes and changes the arch around in an incompatible way.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
      That's beside the point; you can build a UEFI bootloader for at least as far back as the Pi 3, but you have to stick it on an SD card because there's no on-board memory to hold it. I mostly just want enough flash built in to hold it.
      - dmitrygr 3y ago

globular-toast 3y ago

I liked that the Pi lacked features that were taken for granted. Made you think about things in a different way. Now it's just the same as everything else and much less about learning and education.

fransje26 3y ago

And let's go completely radical. Does it get proper video drivers?

knallfrosch 3y ago

Everyone wants their features in, but the Pi to be $40. That just doesn't work.

2Gkashmiri 3y ago
moore's law should apply so why wouldn't it work?
- KaiserPro 3y ago
  Because moore's law is a proxy for RnD for an entire industry. if you want cutting edge features, you need to pay for them. raspberrypi is about value engineering. Making stuff fast and cheap enough so that you can do useful work, but not worry too much if you break it (on the one hand) Or give access to someone who's never had a programmable computer for a price that's cheaper than most mid range lego sets.

znpy 3y ago

> Downsides here are that it might need more active cooling whereas previous generations worked without it. peak power usage also raised to 25W, as now a 5W/5A psu is required. But in the end... features require power, we can't really complain much.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]