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Ask HN: How do you store devices with Lithium-Ion batteries for long-term?

• simcop2387 3y ago
  No idea about anything automated for it but my understanding is that you really can't prevent the problems. I think I read that 70% is more ideal thoguh, because it will keep a charge longer in the better range for the chemistry. The real problem is that the chemistry itaelf of the batteries will slowly and irreversibly break down over time whixh is why once it discharges past a certain point it may not be safe ever again to charge the battery without reprocessing the materials into a new battery. The safest way is really to remove the battery entirely and replace it once you're wanting to use it again. This might also make it easier to keep the battery at a safe charge level if you can find something else to handle it.
• turtleyacht 3y ago
  Recently Polypropylene tape prolongs life of most laptop, cellphone batteries - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37677271 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37677271 - 9 hours ago
• jrockway 3y ago
  I don't think you want an automated charging system. Maybe make a calendar invite for yourself on the first Saturday of every month to check them. Probably takes at most 10 minutes of your weekend.
  • crazygringo 3y ago
    Yup, calendar events are the way to go. I recharge certain backup electronics every six months. I've probably got 20 different home/life calendar maintenance tasks like that, recurring somewhere between every 3 months and every 2 years.
• ruined 3y ago
  in a dedicated concrete structure at least fifty feet from neighboring structures
  • mgarfias 3y ago
    A friend of mine just lost her house to a lipo in an rc car that decided to combust
    • liminalsunset 3y ago
      The types of batteries used in this type of equipment tend to be less robust and more prone to this type of problem than other common equipment with lithium cells in them. Cells/packs used in these hobby applications typically lack an outer protective shell, and are of the pouch cell type. This makes them more susceptible to damage, but is done for primarily weight considerations likely. Typical notebook or phone batteries will be encased in some form of structure that protects them, and for smaller batteries, like in phones, can prevent the fire from exiting the enclosure to some extent. Furthermore, these cells/packs are designed for shockingly high instantaneous discharge rates, which means that any accidental release in energy will be correspondingly fast and violent. It seems that protection of the battery is the charger/device's responsibility, so it's also easy to accidentally use batteries which have been overtemped/overdischarged/underdischarged/overcharged. (they also have much lower design cycle counts than typical electronics batteries). Typical electronics batteries have a chip in them that will disconnect the battery, sometimes permanently, should any of these conditions occur at some point in the battery's lifespan. I would personally recommend against the storage or charging of such batteries indoors without measures to contain any potential fire. For what it's worth, discharging (and maintaining) the batteries at a low state of charge will also decrease the amount of energy available for combustion.
      • runamok 3y ago
        You may be right about drone, helicopter and other flight application batteries (to save weight) but 2s, 3s and above batteries for r/c cars and trucks are usually within a rugged hard shell to protect them from inevitable shocks. Examples: https://www.amainhobbies.com/rc-car-lipo-lihv-batteries/c1393 https://www.amainhobbies.com/rc-car-lipo-lihv-batteries/c139... Many people store their batteries in an ammo box or "lipo safe" such as these to protect against fire: https://www.amazon.com/lipo-safe/s?k=lipo+safe https://www.amazon.com/lipo-safe/s?k=lipo+safe
• SoftTalker 3y ago
  If you're using the device that infrequently, recycle it and stop worrying about it.
  • binarymax 3y ago
    It’s a great question for power tools. I don’t use my circular saw very often, but I do use it every month or two.
    • ocdtrekkie 3y ago
      This is where the "system" approach for cordless power tools really pays dividends. I have several tools that I use with varying degrees of frequency, but only two batteries to worry about. I also know the power tools will likely last decades, but the batteries should be discarded every few years.
  • crazygringo 3y ago
    That is not a helpful comment. People have equipment that they only use on a type of vacation they take every 18 months, for example, and which is more cost-effective to own than rent (or it's not available for rental). They have equipment for emergencies. And so forth. Comments that try to invalidate the entire premise of somebody's problem just aren't useful, and can actually come across as pretty rude.
• smartbit 3y ago
  In a freezer I’ve been storing detachable batteries of a laptop that was mainly used at a desktop. They came out fine after some five years, didn’t do tests before and after though.
  • liminalsunset 3y ago
    It might be helpful to store them in the fridge as opposed to the freezer in some cases. Last time I checked, the highest inflection point in lithium ion degradation with storage seems to be at temperatures at or above 30 C or so [1], so the 5 C typical environment in a fridge would appear to give sufficient margin. One problem with storing them really cold is that should the device drain the battery, a cold battery can more easily fall under the "minimum cell voltage" threshold due to the changed voltage curve, which can cause laptop batteries to totally fail permanently due to the monitoring chip inside. Lithium batteries don't like being charged under 0 degrees Celsius (let them warm up first!), and attempting to do so can lead to the lithium being unable to intercalate into the electrode, causing plating of lithium. The batteries should probably be wrapped in a sealed plastic bag with dessicant in it, to prevent condensation from getting to the internal protection electronics. The device should be allowed to warm up before being removed from the bag to prevent condensation. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/srep12967 https://www.nature.com/articles/srep12967
• makeitdouble 3y ago
  I was going to ask if it was even safe to keep those batteries in device long term, but the answer is already out: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37684415 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37684415 Those warning stickers asking you to remove the batteries when the device won't be used for a long time were not just decorative.
  • Fire-Dragon-DoL 3y ago
    Isn't it impossible to do on various smartphones?
    • saurik 3y ago
      It was a while ago that I watched this video--and I don't want to watch it again right now--but I think this issue was more of a defect in the manufacturing of these batteries; but, since it didn't seem to matter until the phones were being stored for long periods of time--this person maintains a giant collection for some kind of testing purpose--it seems relevant here as these weren't uncommon phones or anything. https://youtu.be/OfM0GqsIB6c https://youtu.be/OfM0GqsIB6c
      • makeitdouble 3y ago
        Anecdotally I've had batteries expanded in two Apple devices (disclaimer: I don't keep many other devices around). The video makes a case for Samsung devices being prone to it in near ideal conditions, but normal people tend to take a lot less care, use them in rougher environments as well and stressing things a lot more, especially as these devices are not used 3 weeks for testing and stored away as reviewers would do. I think we should expect most of our devices to potentially have the issue at some point, whatever the maker. Even on the safer devices, there must be a point where it just happens.
    • makeitdouble 3y ago
      Overwhelmingly Yes, and perhaps no. Yes it's crazy hard to do it non-destructively for many smartphones as a normal user. The same way it's just hell to replace the batteries sometimes (still remember the 52 steps process for the previous gen iPad pros). No in that normal users should also not store a trove of past smartphones (or any electronic device) if they can't remove the battery, so the only people that should have this problem are iFixit grade tinkerers, for whom 50+ steps of disassembly should be fine. That could be another angle on "why should I care about battery accessibility in my phone" ?
• 1letterunixname 3y ago
  NMC chemistries: 70-80% charge, minimal humidity (corrosion of electronics is always a concern), very cold, and in a fire-proof container. Pb chemistries (automotive, boat, etc.): trickle charge with periodic desulphation.
• zingerlio 3y ago
  Whenever I go on vacation for more than 2 weeks, I have this irrational fear that one of those neglected devices in a drawer somewhere would become a spicy pillow and self combust and burn my house down. Sometimes I keep them in those thin metal cookie boxes with a lid, so it could have some level of isolation. Never validated though.
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  • mirekrusin 3y ago
    Drain them before for peace of mind. Which makes you think, maybe all electronics above certain capacity should have controlled drain option?
• mcmcfly 3y ago
  DJI drone batteries "auto-discharge" [1] down to about 60% after being idle for around a week (idle time depends on the model). [1] https://support.dji.com/help/content?customId=en-us03400006548&spaceId=34 https://support.dji.com/help/content?customId=en-us034000065...
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
• dzek69 3y ago
  I do nothing and surprisingly nothing is broken. I.e. I found 6 years not used Xperia phone, I charged it and it just works, without any visible battery degradation issues. I have few other battery powered devices and none is giving me any issues after years of storage. Last time I've seen swollen battery was in the Nokia dumbphones era. So while it might not be the best idea - I will keep doing nothing special.
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
• mid-kid 3y ago
  I just make sure to never store them fully charged, or fully discharged. Some neutral state of charge tends to work fine.
• olalonde 3y ago
  Modern smartphones have sophisticated battery management systems that could theoretically be programmed to optimize for this scenario but unfortunately those systems tend to be off limits to third party developers.
  • exmadscientist 3y ago
    These systems are, alas, not usually programmed very well at all. I have heard some stories (and they are credible -- I'm typing on one of the products concerned!), but they're not the sort of thing I can repeat publicly without burning a few bridges. Suffice it to say you should assume your device's BMS is programmed to optimize charging speed (and maybe fresh-out-of-the-box capacity, not that the BMS can affect that much) and absolutely nothing else. That said, around here we charge stuff to about one-third of its capacity and leave it sitting around for years on end, and that seems to work out OK. There's only been one incident so far, and that was during active work with a soldering iron on an unprotected battery contact. (Which is, yes, insanely risky with a 30C-rated discharge cell!)
• thefz 3y ago
  In a LiPo bag. These are (supposedly) fireproof bags that should hold fire in case a battery goes bad. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=lipo+bag&ref=nav_bb_sb https://www.amazon.com/s?k=lipo+bag&ref=nav_bb_sb
• layer8 3y ago
  There are inexpensive timers you can plug into an outlet and attach one or more devices to (power-strip style). Just choose some cycle (half an hour once per week, for example) and attach all your devices you want to keep the batteries from draining to zero. I don’t know the best timing approach to maximize battery longevity, but draining to zero for a longer time can definitely kill a battery.
• tomohawk 3y ago
  Battery fires are a serious deal. Even in a carefully designed situation such as the 787, there can be problems. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-lithium-ion-batteries-grounded-the-dreamliner/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-lithium-ion-b... And keeping batteries around in warehouses has caused a few problems, too. The Morris Illinois battery fire was a pretty big deal.
• eimrine 3y ago
  If you are going to need that device in not nearest future (1 year+), probably you should buy an original spare battery. There are maybe a million of Lithium battery designs on the Earth, do not expect you can easily buy a battery to your device. Especially if this is a Blackberry/GoPro/proprietary device with a sophisticated battery connection which refuses to just use 4.2V from any source.
  • yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
    So you should replace the battery, but also getting a replacement battery is impossible?
    • eimrine 3y ago
      I don't understand your question. I mean that if you going to use the device in future you might need the battery. And a supply of replacement batteries may just stop. Especially I mean original replacement batteries. For example, the legendary BL-4C is available in my country only as non-original version having half of capacity or less.
• acyou 3y ago
  Fireplaces or outside away from flammable objects are great places to charge lithium ion betteries. You're also best off supervising charging in person, watching for melting plastic, smoke, bulging/swelling.
• avidiax 3y ago
  Store at about 50-70% charge, in a metal box, in the refrigerator. That will allow the cells to last the maximum amount of time. You might need to periodically recharge them, but this could be months at least for electronics that can be turned off. If the device doesn't have a charge meter, draining it and then charging for 30 minutes will often work, since many devices are designed to charge at 1C, i.e. 0->100% in one hour.
• Saris 3y ago
  Store at 30-50%. I can't say I've ever had a device turn out completely discharged, but I imagine some do not properly shut off entirely.
• fouc 3y ago
  from Apple[1] the advice is: * Do not fully charge or fully discharge your device’s battery — charge it to around 50%. * Power down the device to avoid additional battery use. * Place your device in a cool, moisture-free environment that’s less than 90° F (32° C). * If you plan to store your device for longer than six months, charge it to 50% every six months. So it seems to me that I should just use a calendar reminder after all. [0] https://www.apple.com/batteries/maximizing-performance/ https://www.apple.com/batteries/maximizing-performance/