4 ms·

I give you a work laptop, training budget, third-party technical budget, lawyers, accountants, marketing... and I don't get the IP rights? No deal. That aside

I give you a work laptop, training budget, third-party technical budget, lawyers, accountants, marketing... and I don't get the IP rights? No deal. That aside, you're describing already available comp models with equity participation.

shard972 3y ago
So if im bringing my own laptop, staging environments, training budget then i should get some IP rights?
- caminante 3y ago
  Not what I said or implied, assuming your intent is to be snarky. However, I've executed deals where developers contribute assets and get royalties/earnout. You can always try to negotiate.
deathanatos 3y ago
While I know the comment above appears to be suggesting keeping all IP — and I agree that's not workable — there are a number of employers that would also like to own the IP to any love notes I write my sweetheart, photographs I take of my nephew, etc. Also I've seen some that want moral rights, which I don't think one should be required to give up, ever. Reform is needed here. I have no qualm about signing over IP developed specifically for the company, on the company's dime. But some IP agreements get absurd about it.
- andsoitis 3y ago
  > there are a number of employers that would also like to own the IP to any love notes I write my sweetheart, photographs I take of my nephew, etc. What’s a good example of an employer who wants that from someone because that person is an employee?
  - eminence32 3y ago
    moreover, is there any case law that suggests such things are an enforceable part of an employment contract?
  - caminante 3y ago
    I'm curious for examples, too. Otherwise, this is hyperbole or exceptional in the least.
  - billythemaniam 3y ago
    It is extremely common among research universities where they try to own all your ideas. I remember a professor had a side business cleaning pools which had nothing to do with his research area. The university found out and wanted their cut. He gave it to them because it was better than being fired and sued. These types of contracts are illegal in CA, but legal in many other states.
    - caminante 3y ago
      There has to be more nuance here, e.g. using university email/resources.
  - brewdad 3y ago
    If you read the letter of many employment agreements, they try to claim anything you create while under their employ is theirs. Do they want your love letters? Not unless you become famous and they think they can make a book out of them. Do they want the code to that side project you’ve been playing around with? Quite possibly. Can you afford to fight them if they do try to claim it? Maybe if your side project has already taken off.
    - caminante 3y ago
      > they try to claim anything you create while under their employ If written that broadly, that's just sloppy. [0] It benefits both sides to be more clear. There are also nuances to "claim" and what rights the employer may have (e.g. They get a license, but not full copyright.) IANAL, but I have recently read an IP waiver for a mega firm with heavy R&D and while they get their hooks in most job-related creations, they have exclusions for things orthogonal to your job. [0] https://pro.bloomberglaw.com/common-misunderstandings-about-intellectual-property/ https://pro.bloomberglaw.com/common-misunderstandings-about-...
Forgeties79 3y ago
Why does paying for one thing entitle you to own another? You didn’t give me a laptop. You are giving me a tool contingent upon employment. If I leave the company, you take it back. What am I supposed to be grateful for? Should a janitor thank their employer for a rolling trash can and mop? Training? My teachers and mentors have literally no rights to anything I’ve filmed and edited. That would be ridiculous. Lawyers and accountants are for you and your company. That is not a gift to me. I cannot just call them for my own personal use at will. They only exist for the company and company purposes. Chances are I will literally never talk to them no matter how long I work for your company. Marketing benefits you. Why does marketing benefit me at all? They aren’t doing anything for me. They aren’t building my brand and creating an image for me. They’re doing it for you and your company. They’re driving revenue for you.
- caminante 3y ago
  Your first paragraph calls into question universal contract law/rights...? I don't know how you reconcile that with signing everyday contracts as I'm sure you do. As for your other premises, I don't know how you can make such general claims, given endless exceptions.
  - Forgeties79 3y ago
    > Your first paragraph calls into question universal contract law/rights...? I was a freelancer/production house owner for over a decade, I am very confused what you mean by this - I have no idea what you are referring to. A contract is only what is mutually agreed upon by all parties involved. Either way, I have never signed a contract with anyone that entitled them to my work outside of the scope as dictated by the contract. What you get from me is clear in our contract or it isn’t yous. No one is entitled to anything I shoot or edit unless they explicitly paid for it. Likewise, my shooters only ever gave me what was negotiated explicitly. If that is not explicitly stated, there is no assumption they get the rights to anything I shoot or vice versa. Go call a wedding photographer and ask for all the raws from their shoot after the fact. They’ll laugh until you hang up.
    - 3y ago
HumblyTossed 3y ago
That laptop is a loaner from your IT dept. You didn’t train me. You hired me for my knowledge; remember those four days of whiteboard gymnastics? And you want to make money too, so you need to bring the lawyers and sales staff.
8note 3y ago
I'm not clear why it's a no deal, when in a different industry with the same details but a different IP output, it's a deal? George Clooney isn't bringing his own cameras and lighting systems to appear in a movie, but he'll still get residuals

shard972 3y ago

So if im bringing my own laptop, staging environments, training budget then i should get some IP rights?

caminante 3y ago
Not what I said or implied, assuming your intent is to be snarky. However, I've executed deals where developers contribute assets and get royalties/earnout. You can always try to negotiate.

deathanatos 3y ago

While I know the comment above appears to be suggesting keeping all IP — and I agree that's not workable — there are a number of employers that would also like to own the IP to any love notes I write my sweetheart, photographs I take of my nephew, etc. Also I've seen some that want moral rights, which I don't think one should be required to give up, ever. Reform is needed here. I have no qualm about signing over IP developed specifically for the company, on the company's dime. But some IP agreements get absurd about it.

andsoitis 3y ago
> there are a number of employers that would also like to own the IP to any love notes I write my sweetheart, photographs I take of my nephew, etc. What’s a good example of an employer who wants that from someone because that person is an employee?
- eminence32 3y ago
  moreover, is there any case law that suggests such things are an enforceable part of an employment contract?
- caminante 3y ago
  I'm curious for examples, too. Otherwise, this is hyperbole or exceptional in the least.
- billythemaniam 3y ago
  It is extremely common among research universities where they try to own all your ideas. I remember a professor had a side business cleaning pools which had nothing to do with his research area. The university found out and wanted their cut. He gave it to them because it was better than being fired and sued. These types of contracts are illegal in CA, but legal in many other states.
  - caminante 3y ago
    There has to be more nuance here, e.g. using university email/resources.
- brewdad 3y ago
  If you read the letter of many employment agreements, they try to claim anything you create while under their employ is theirs. Do they want your love letters? Not unless you become famous and they think they can make a book out of them. Do they want the code to that side project you’ve been playing around with? Quite possibly. Can you afford to fight them if they do try to claim it? Maybe if your side project has already taken off.
  - caminante 3y ago
    > they try to claim anything you create while under their employ If written that broadly, that's just sloppy. [0] It benefits both sides to be more clear. There are also nuances to "claim" and what rights the employer may have (e.g. They get a license, but not full copyright.) IANAL, but I have recently read an IP waiver for a mega firm with heavy R&D and while they get their hooks in most job-related creations, they have exclusions for things orthogonal to your job. [0] https://pro.bloomberglaw.com/common-misunderstandings-about-intellectual-property/ https://pro.bloomberglaw.com/common-misunderstandings-about-...

Forgeties79 3y ago

Why does paying for one thing entitle you to own another? You didn’t give me a laptop. You are giving me a tool contingent upon employment. If I leave the company, you take it back. What am I supposed to be grateful for? Should a janitor thank their employer for a rolling trash can and mop? Training? My teachers and mentors have literally no rights to anything I’ve filmed and edited. That would be ridiculous. Lawyers and accountants are for you and your company. That is not a gift to me. I cannot just call them for my own personal use at will. They only exist for the company and company purposes. Chances are I will literally never talk to them no matter how long I work for your company. Marketing benefits you. Why does marketing benefit me at all? They aren’t doing anything for me. They aren’t building my brand and creating an image for me. They’re doing it for you and your company. They’re driving revenue for you.

caminante 3y ago
Your first paragraph calls into question universal contract law/rights...? I don't know how you reconcile that with signing everyday contracts as I'm sure you do. As for your other premises, I don't know how you can make such general claims, given endless exceptions.
- Forgeties79 3y ago
  > Your first paragraph calls into question universal contract law/rights...? I was a freelancer/production house owner for over a decade, I am very confused what you mean by this - I have no idea what you are referring to. A contract is only what is mutually agreed upon by all parties involved. Either way, I have never signed a contract with anyone that entitled them to my work outside of the scope as dictated by the contract. What you get from me is clear in our contract or it isn’t yous. No one is entitled to anything I shoot or edit unless they explicitly paid for it. Likewise, my shooters only ever gave me what was negotiated explicitly. If that is not explicitly stated, there is no assumption they get the rights to anything I shoot or vice versa. Go call a wedding photographer and ask for all the raws from their shoot after the fact. They’ll laugh until you hang up.
  - 3y ago

HumblyTossed 3y ago

That laptop is a loaner from your IT dept. You didn’t train me. You hired me for my knowledge; remember those four days of whiteboard gymnastics? And you want to make money too, so you need to bring the lawyers and sales staff.

8note 3y ago

I'm not clear why it's a no deal, when in a different industry with the same details but a different IP output, it's a deal? George Clooney isn't bringing his own cameras and lighting systems to appear in a movie, but he'll still get residuals