4 ms·

> I don't think it is possible to allow people to legally continue the addiction because of growing tolerances to the drugs that require people to find stronge

> I don't think it is possible to allow people to legally continue the addiction because of growing tolerances to the drugs that require people to find stronger and stronger drugs or dosages. This is counterfactual. There is zero basis for claiming that tolerances are increasing at a population level. The increase in potency of street drugs is due to the basic economics of the black market on the supply side, not a response to demand. > I think forced treatments have to start becoming an option. It isn't humane to let people rot on the streets. Forced treatment is itself inhumane. It's a "solution" proposed only by people who have little idea of what it looks like in practice, of how substance abuse works, or of what successful treatment actually entails. In reality, "forced treatment" dramatically increases the death rates of people subjected to it. If your problem is with people living "on the street", there are lots of simpler ways to address that problem than to subject them to a costly, expensive government response that will statistically end up killing them.

TerrifiedMouse 3y ago
> This is counterfactual. There is zero basis for claiming that tolerances are increasing at a population level. The increase in potency of street drugs is due to the basic economics of the black market on the supply side, not a response to demand. I think he is just saying even if you legalize it and allow addicts to get drugs easily, it’s not viable long term as the addicts will develop tolerance to the drugs and will need ever increasing doses.
- chimeracoder 3y ago
  > I think he is just saying even if you legalize it and allow addicts to get drugs easily, it’s not viable long term as the addicts will develop tolerance to the drugs and will need ever increasing doses. Right, and that's not true, because that's not how addiction actually works.
  - TerrifiedMouse 3y ago
    Based on a quick reading of a few health websites, there is a difference between drug tolerance, dependence, and addiction. Can tolerance result in withdrawal when dependence is present? Probably not? No one has mentioned it anyway. If so a person who has developed tolerance and dependence on a drug will just not feel any of the effects when they take it but will feel withdrawal effects when they stop. Addiction is a different can of worms though. If addicts crave the effects of the drug and won’t be satisfied otherwise, then tolerance is a problem for them and they will require ever higher doses to stop the cravings.
    - stingrae 3y ago
      "If addicts crave the effects of the drug and won’t be satisfied otherwise, then tolerance is a problem for them and they will require ever higher doses to stop the cravings." This is exactly what I'm afraid of. Especially when it is very easy to overdose on fentanyl.
      - gwbas1c 3y ago
        One very important reason to legalize access to opioids is for quality control. The main reason why overdoses occur is because street drug potency is unknown, and because street drug potency can be inconsistent within the same batch. (IE, if my black market "heroin" is really powdered fentanyl mixed in a gel, if I don't mix it well the fentanyl will clump, and the clumps could kill someone.)
    - chimeracoder 3y ago
      > Based on a quick reading of a few health websites, there is a difference between drug tolerance, dependence, and addiction. Just to be clear here, I'm speaking from a position of much more domain knowledge than "a quick reading of a few health websites". > If addicts crave the effects of the drug and won’t be satisfied otherwise, then tolerance is a problem for them and they will require ever higher doses to stop the cravings. This, along with the entire trichotomy you've presented, is incorrect. It may surprise you to know that this is a topic that has been quite extensively researched, and there are mountains of clinical data on the topic. Maintenance doses aren't "ever-increasing" - they're fixed.
- stingrae 3y ago
  This is exactly what I'm saying.
  - gwbas1c 3y ago
    There's plenty of proof that this isn't true. Canada ran a safe injection site with (cough) free heroin of guaranteed quality and potency, and free access to addiction counseling. Turns out most people (in the program) quit using eventually. I personally don't remember the details, and if you want to do the research to confirm (or dispute) my facts, that's on you. The bigger problem is that government anti-drug propaganda (like DARE in the US,) biases people to assume that legal access to drugs will increase addiction, when the facts generally disprove this assumption.

TerrifiedMouse 3y ago

> This is counterfactual. There is zero basis for claiming that tolerances are increasing at a population level. The increase in potency of street drugs is due to the basic economics of the black market on the supply side, not a response to demand. I think he is just saying even if you legalize it and allow addicts to get drugs easily, it’s not viable long term as the addicts will develop tolerance to the drugs and will need ever increasing doses.

chimeracoder 3y ago
> I think he is just saying even if you legalize it and allow addicts to get drugs easily, it’s not viable long term as the addicts will develop tolerance to the drugs and will need ever increasing doses. Right, and that's not true, because that's not how addiction actually works.
- TerrifiedMouse 3y ago
  Based on a quick reading of a few health websites, there is a difference between drug tolerance, dependence, and addiction. Can tolerance result in withdrawal when dependence is present? Probably not? No one has mentioned it anyway. If so a person who has developed tolerance and dependence on a drug will just not feel any of the effects when they take it but will feel withdrawal effects when they stop. Addiction is a different can of worms though. If addicts crave the effects of the drug and won’t be satisfied otherwise, then tolerance is a problem for them and they will require ever higher doses to stop the cravings.
  - stingrae 3y ago
    "If addicts crave the effects of the drug and won’t be satisfied otherwise, then tolerance is a problem for them and they will require ever higher doses to stop the cravings." This is exactly what I'm afraid of. Especially when it is very easy to overdose on fentanyl.
    - gwbas1c 3y ago
      One very important reason to legalize access to opioids is for quality control. The main reason why overdoses occur is because street drug potency is unknown, and because street drug potency can be inconsistent within the same batch. (IE, if my black market "heroin" is really powdered fentanyl mixed in a gel, if I don't mix it well the fentanyl will clump, and the clumps could kill someone.)
  - chimeracoder 3y ago
    > Based on a quick reading of a few health websites, there is a difference between drug tolerance, dependence, and addiction. Just to be clear here, I'm speaking from a position of much more domain knowledge than "a quick reading of a few health websites". > If addicts crave the effects of the drug and won’t be satisfied otherwise, then tolerance is a problem for them and they will require ever higher doses to stop the cravings. This, along with the entire trichotomy you've presented, is incorrect. It may surprise you to know that this is a topic that has been quite extensively researched, and there are mountains of clinical data on the topic. Maintenance doses aren't "ever-increasing" - they're fixed.
stingrae 3y ago
This is exactly what I'm saying.
- gwbas1c 3y ago
  There's plenty of proof that this isn't true. Canada ran a safe injection site with (cough) free heroin of guaranteed quality and potency, and free access to addiction counseling. Turns out most people (in the program) quit using eventually. I personally don't remember the details, and if you want to do the research to confirm (or dispute) my facts, that's on you. The bigger problem is that government anti-drug propaganda (like DARE in the US,) biases people to assume that legal access to drugs will increase addiction, when the facts generally disprove this assumption.