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No amount of process can fix bad communication. Standups are an attempt at that. Teams that have good communication succeed more, and standups aren't integral

No amount of process can fix bad communication. Standups are an attempt at that. Teams that have good communication succeed more, and standups aren't integral to their success. Teams with bad communication fail more, and standups can't help them. Sales teams and sports teams don't work as a comparison, they aren't building something (sales is a particularly bad example, most sales team members are in direct competition with each other). I'm trying to imagine standups on a building site. Tom: "Yesterday I.." Everyone cuts Tom off and talks over each other: "No shit, Tom. You're gonna work today, too." "That insulation isn't going to unroll itself!" "Tell us, dear Tom, will you be screwing the sheetrock in with a DeWalt or a Hitachi?" Good teams communicate while they build, and know where each other are.

vannevar 15y ago
No amount of process can fix bad communication. Sure it can. If I've got a team member who can't be bothered to let people know what he's doing on his own, I can hold a standup every morning to make sure the information gets communicated to the team. If he lies every day about what he does, the longest he can go is one sprint before his work gets verified. I'm trying to imagine standups on a building site. I don't know, I think it goes something like this: "Hey Tom, how far did you guys get on the roofing yesterday?" "Only about a quarter of the way. Some dipshit ordered the wrong shingles." "Ok, Bob will you get on that today so Tom and Dick can finish the roofing? How about you Fred, where are you at on the sheetrock?" "Living room and kitchen are done, I should finish the bedrooms today..." etc. Pretty much what actually happens at a construction site if the builder is competent. I don't know what kind of standups you've been in but they sound like they were run by someone with no training or experience in the process. Good teams communicate while they build, and know where each other are. How do they communicate? What if Tom doesn't know what Dick's doing and Dick doesn't think to tell him because he doesn't know Tom needs to know? This doesn't magically happen even if everyone is individually a star at what they do.
- itsreallynotme 15y ago
  "Sure it can... If he lies every day about what he does, the longest he can go is one sprint before his work gets verified." That's not fixing bad communication. That's wrapping it up in process, and calling it "good enough". The team communication, and probably its morale and output, still sucks. "etc. Pretty much what actually happens at a construction site" That communication happens continuously, throughout the day. If isn't happening continuously, throwing a standup at it ain't gonna fix it.
  - vannevar 15y ago
    That's wrapping it up in process, and calling it "good enough". "Good enough" is certainly better than "not good enough". And it doesn't have anything to do with morale. The team's morale might be sky-high and they can still make mistakes because person A didn't know what person B was doing in a timely fashion. People have a tendency to overestimate their skills in general, and communication is no exception. Standups are just a form of insurance and cost almost nothing. Even if your team communicates like they're telepathic, 15 minutes a day in standup isn't going to hurt them. If isn't happening continuously, throwing a standup at it ain't gonna fix it. If I'm managing 5 job sites, I'm not there continuously. It might not be perfect, but once a day sure beats nothing. Most of the time when someone is doing something wrong, they don't know they're doing something wrong. No one is going to call me up and say, "Hey, I'm about to do something stupid and wanted to run it by you."
    - itsreallynotme 15y ago
      "Good enough" is certainly better than "not good enough". In the scenario that you described, someone went from not communicating at all to lying every day, and getting "caught" at the end of a sprint. Standups didn't fix anything there. Also, there is a world of difference between calling something good enough, and it being good enough. If I'm managing 5 job sites ... once a day sure beats nothing If, as a manager of 5 teams, you feel like you need a direct, daily report of what every person on every team does, your life is going to be hard. If you attempt to control those teams by adding more process, you will interfere with the productivity of your good teams, and your bad teams will continue to suck.
wpietri 15y ago
Personally, I like having a daily stand-up. So do my colleagues. First thing in the morning is a great time to sync up on things. I have seen places that do them poorly, and I gather that's what you've experienced. But it's also possible to do them well.

vannevar 15y ago

No amount of process can fix bad communication. Sure it can. If I've got a team member who can't be bothered to let people know what he's doing on his own, I can hold a standup every morning to make sure the information gets communicated to the team. If he lies every day about what he does, the longest he can go is one sprint before his work gets verified. I'm trying to imagine standups on a building site. I don't know, I think it goes something like this: "Hey Tom, how far did you guys get on the roofing yesterday?" "Only about a quarter of the way. Some dipshit ordered the wrong shingles." "Ok, Bob will you get on that today so Tom and Dick can finish the roofing? How about you Fred, where are you at on the sheetrock?" "Living room and kitchen are done, I should finish the bedrooms today..." etc. Pretty much what actually happens at a construction site if the builder is competent. I don't know what kind of standups you've been in but they sound like they were run by someone with no training or experience in the process. Good teams communicate while they build, and know where each other are. How do they communicate? What if Tom doesn't know what Dick's doing and Dick doesn't think to tell him because he doesn't know Tom needs to know? This doesn't magically happen even if everyone is individually a star at what they do.

itsreallynotme 15y ago
"Sure it can... If he lies every day about what he does, the longest he can go is one sprint before his work gets verified." That's not fixing bad communication. That's wrapping it up in process, and calling it "good enough". The team communication, and probably its morale and output, still sucks. "etc. Pretty much what actually happens at a construction site" That communication happens continuously, throughout the day. If isn't happening continuously, throwing a standup at it ain't gonna fix it.
- vannevar 15y ago
  That's wrapping it up in process, and calling it "good enough". "Good enough" is certainly better than "not good enough". And it doesn't have anything to do with morale. The team's morale might be sky-high and they can still make mistakes because person A didn't know what person B was doing in a timely fashion. People have a tendency to overestimate their skills in general, and communication is no exception. Standups are just a form of insurance and cost almost nothing. Even if your team communicates like they're telepathic, 15 minutes a day in standup isn't going to hurt them. If isn't happening continuously, throwing a standup at it ain't gonna fix it. If I'm managing 5 job sites, I'm not there continuously. It might not be perfect, but once a day sure beats nothing. Most of the time when someone is doing something wrong, they don't know they're doing something wrong. No one is going to call me up and say, "Hey, I'm about to do something stupid and wanted to run it by you."
  - itsreallynotme 15y ago
    "Good enough" is certainly better than "not good enough". In the scenario that you described, someone went from not communicating at all to lying every day, and getting "caught" at the end of a sprint. Standups didn't fix anything there. Also, there is a world of difference between calling something good enough, and it being good enough. If I'm managing 5 job sites ... once a day sure beats nothing If, as a manager of 5 teams, you feel like you need a direct, daily report of what every person on every team does, your life is going to be hard. If you attempt to control those teams by adding more process, you will interfere with the productivity of your good teams, and your bad teams will continue to suck.

wpietri 15y ago

Personally, I like having a daily stand-up. So do my colleagues. First thing in the morning is a great time to sync up on things. I have seen places that do them poorly, and I gather that's what you've experienced. But it's also possible to do them well.