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utterly predictable outcome: > The iron law of prohibition is a term coined by Richard Cowan in 1986 which posits that as law enforcement becomes more intense,

utterly predictable outcome: > The iron law of prohibition is a term coined by Richard Cowan in 1986 which posits that as law enforcement becomes more intense, the potency of prohibited substances increases. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_prohibition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_prohibition

standardUser 3y ago
A more unusual trend I've noticed is that the price of illicit drugs has generally decreased over the past few decades. If you adjust for inflation, most drugs are now cheaper despite countless fortunes (of our money) wasted on trying to stop their production and sale.
- pixl97 3y ago
  Drugs have almost always been cheap in production costs. It was the risk that drove up retail costs. Heh, and better enforcement actually pulls more manufactures into the market, because while the risk increases, the potential profits tend to increase even more.
- jstarfish 3y ago
  > A more unusual trend I've noticed is that the price of illicit drugs has generally decreased over the past few decades. If you adjust for inflation, most drugs are now cheaper despite countless fortunes (of our money) wasted on trying to stop their production and sale. I assume this is because everything is being diluted with cheap fentanyl.
  - standardUser 3y ago
    No, not at all. In fact, heroin is one of the few drugs I don't know where to purchase and I have no idea what it costs. But for drugs I do know and sometimes purchase, dollar prices have barely budged while the value of the dollar has declined (compared to the 90's). It's still $60-$120 for a gram of cocaine. It's still $3-$5 for a hit of acid. It's still $20-$30 for an eighth of shrooms. Ecstasy pills sometimes go for $30 now, but you can still find them for $20 just like in the 90's.
  - chimeracoder 3y ago
    > I assume this is because everything is being diluted with cheap fentanyl. This is a myth. Nobody is cutting non-opiate drugs (like cocaine) with fentanyl. Fentanyl overdoses from non-opiate drugs are the result of accidental contamination, not intentional adulteration. Drugs like cocaine are cut with other substances intentionally, but not fentanyl.
guardiangod 3y ago
Yes, that's why the drug utopia known as Canada has eliminated fentanyl death.
gwbas1c 3y ago
It just makes me wonder what is the correct way to legislate opioids? Obviously, we need some legislation, otherwise we'll revert to the world of patent medicines. (Basically, cure-all patent medicines had opioids in them, and people didn't realize what they were taking.) Also, obviously, we shouldn't criminalize addiction to opioids. Perhaps we merely need to change how opioids are prescribed so that someone can legally maintain an addiction without an otherwise "medical" need? IE, a recreational heroin user can get a prescription, and if someone accidentally becomes addicted to painkillers that were prescribed for medical reasons, they can legally continue that addiction as long as they want to?
- akira2501 3y ago
  > It just makes me wonder what is the correct way to legislate opioids? Is legislation the primary problem with these addicts? Or are there other social factors involved? If so, then perhaps the legislation itself is the least important part of the puzzle. > Also, obviously, we shouldn't criminalize addiction to opioids. We don't.. it's just possession and sales that are criminalized. > can legally maintain an addiction What social interest is there in promoting that? > a recreational heroin user can get a prescription, and if someone accidentally becomes addicted to painkillers that were prescribed for medical reasons, they can legally continue that addiction as long as they want to? There's a real fantasy on Hacker News about what the debonair lifestyles of heroin addicts actually are and zero apparent understanding of the long term consequences of the same.
  - gwbas1c 3y ago
    >> can legally maintain an addiction > What social interest is there in promoting that? Because the whole reason why we have the opioid crisis is because consuming any opioid without a medical reason is illegal. IE, if you have an injury, and are prescribed opioids, and then accidentally get addicted, your only legal option is to go through withdrawal. If you or I found ourselves in that situation, we'd probably go through withdrawal. Other people won't, and choose to violate drug laws in order to maintain their addiction. Edit: I just want to point out that plenty of people willingly do stupid things: They get addicted to cigarettes, become alcoholics, drive too fast, write mean comments on the internet... We don't force them to quit their vices. The same should apply to opioids too.
zactato 3y ago
Is that what's happening here? Has law enforcement become more intense over the last 15 years? I feel like its become less intense but the drugs have still become more potent.
- steego 3y ago
  The phenomenon doesn’t require for enforcement to become increasingly intense. Enforcement just needs to be consistently intense enough to create an incentive for traffickers to opt for less bulky alternatives over bulkier alternatives.
- WoahNoun 3y ago
  Law enforcement is a broad term. 15 years ago oxycodone pills were everywhere. With the crackdown on "pill mill" doctors/pharmacies and prescription monitoring, it's almost impossible to find those pills and the alternative is the fentanyl currently flooding the market.
cameldrv 3y ago
I don't know if enforcement has all that much to do with it. I think it's just the iron law of capitalism + addictive substances. More powerful, more addictive, cheaper products win in the market. Everything is like this. Packaged food has better engineered flavor so you eat more. Legal weed is labelled with its (high) THC content. Even the ABV on beer has been going up a lot in the past couple of decades.

standardUser 3y ago

A more unusual trend I've noticed is that the price of illicit drugs has generally decreased over the past few decades. If you adjust for inflation, most drugs are now cheaper despite countless fortunes (of our money) wasted on trying to stop their production and sale.

pixl97 3y ago
Drugs have almost always been cheap in production costs. It was the risk that drove up retail costs. Heh, and better enforcement actually pulls more manufactures into the market, because while the risk increases, the potential profits tend to increase even more.
jstarfish 3y ago
> A more unusual trend I've noticed is that the price of illicit drugs has generally decreased over the past few decades. If you adjust for inflation, most drugs are now cheaper despite countless fortunes (of our money) wasted on trying to stop their production and sale. I assume this is because everything is being diluted with cheap fentanyl.
- standardUser 3y ago
  No, not at all. In fact, heroin is one of the few drugs I don't know where to purchase and I have no idea what it costs. But for drugs I do know and sometimes purchase, dollar prices have barely budged while the value of the dollar has declined (compared to the 90's). It's still $60-$120 for a gram of cocaine. It's still $3-$5 for a hit of acid. It's still $20-$30 for an eighth of shrooms. Ecstasy pills sometimes go for $30 now, but you can still find them for $20 just like in the 90's.
- chimeracoder 3y ago
  > I assume this is because everything is being diluted with cheap fentanyl. This is a myth. Nobody is cutting non-opiate drugs (like cocaine) with fentanyl. Fentanyl overdoses from non-opiate drugs are the result of accidental contamination, not intentional adulteration. Drugs like cocaine are cut with other substances intentionally, but not fentanyl.

guardiangod 3y ago

Yes, that's why the drug utopia known as Canada has eliminated fentanyl death.

gwbas1c 3y ago

It just makes me wonder what is the correct way to legislate opioids? Obviously, we need some legislation, otherwise we'll revert to the world of patent medicines. (Basically, cure-all patent medicines had opioids in them, and people didn't realize what they were taking.) Also, obviously, we shouldn't criminalize addiction to opioids. Perhaps we merely need to change how opioids are prescribed so that someone can legally maintain an addiction without an otherwise "medical" need? IE, a recreational heroin user can get a prescription, and if someone accidentally becomes addicted to painkillers that were prescribed for medical reasons, they can legally continue that addiction as long as they want to?

akira2501 3y ago
> It just makes me wonder what is the correct way to legislate opioids? Is legislation the primary problem with these addicts? Or are there other social factors involved? If so, then perhaps the legislation itself is the least important part of the puzzle. > Also, obviously, we shouldn't criminalize addiction to opioids. We don't.. it's just possession and sales that are criminalized. > can legally maintain an addiction What social interest is there in promoting that? > a recreational heroin user can get a prescription, and if someone accidentally becomes addicted to painkillers that were prescribed for medical reasons, they can legally continue that addiction as long as they want to? There's a real fantasy on Hacker News about what the debonair lifestyles of heroin addicts actually are and zero apparent understanding of the long term consequences of the same.
- gwbas1c 3y ago
  >> can legally maintain an addiction > What social interest is there in promoting that? Because the whole reason why we have the opioid crisis is because consuming any opioid without a medical reason is illegal. IE, if you have an injury, and are prescribed opioids, and then accidentally get addicted, your only legal option is to go through withdrawal. If you or I found ourselves in that situation, we'd probably go through withdrawal. Other people won't, and choose to violate drug laws in order to maintain their addiction. Edit: I just want to point out that plenty of people willingly do stupid things: They get addicted to cigarettes, become alcoholics, drive too fast, write mean comments on the internet... We don't force them to quit their vices. The same should apply to opioids too.

zactato 3y ago

Is that what's happening here? Has law enforcement become more intense over the last 15 years? I feel like its become less intense but the drugs have still become more potent.

steego 3y ago
The phenomenon doesn’t require for enforcement to become increasingly intense. Enforcement just needs to be consistently intense enough to create an incentive for traffickers to opt for less bulky alternatives over bulkier alternatives.
WoahNoun 3y ago
Law enforcement is a broad term. 15 years ago oxycodone pills were everywhere. With the crackdown on "pill mill" doctors/pharmacies and prescription monitoring, it's almost impossible to find those pills and the alternative is the fentanyl currently flooding the market.

cameldrv 3y ago

I don't know if enforcement has all that much to do with it. I think it's just the iron law of capitalism + addictive substances. More powerful, more addictive, cheaper products win in the market. Everything is like this. Packaged food has better engineered flavor so you eat more. Legal weed is labelled with its (high) THC content. Even the ABV on beer has been going up a lot in the past couple of decades.