7 ms·

Tim Urban has a similar post on this called “The Tail End”, noting that by the time we get to adulthood we often have used up the vast majority of time spent wi

Tim Urban has a similar post on this called “The Tail End”, noting that by the time we get to adulthood we often have used up the vast majority of time spent with loved ones - particularly with parents and siblings. https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/12/the-tail-end.html https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/12/the-tail-end.html My brother and I read this and were touched by it; we lived on opposite coasts and since we were kids always loved hanging out with one another. The idea that in our current arrangement we had already depleted MOST of our time together was a bitter pill to swallow. For years we batted around the idea of living closer to each other. One day we just pulled the trigger and did it. It was enormously inconvenient, took a ton of logistical planning for our respective families, jobs and so on; but we ended up with houses within walking distance of one another and went from seeing each other and our immediate families maybe 10 days a year to 300+. We have accepted going forward it may limit our career options relative to when we lived in top tier American cities but the happiness we gained in the process is more than worth it. I’m still not 100% sure the experiment will work out, but making the adjustment to live closer to family has substantially increased my mental health and emotional well-being. If you have close friendships and have ever talked about this seriously, I’d encourage you to consider what you might be gaining or losing in your current setup. It’s not for everyone but worth exploring!

nine_zeros 3y ago
I loved your post because I have been living away from my younger brother (and parents) for over 10 years. We meet about once every 2 years. Every time we meet each other, I feel - great. Just amazing. We just sit and shoot the shit like nothing changed. We care for each other's lives. Just sitting with beers or staying over at each other's place makes me feel belonged. Our spouses love hanging out with us. We all go on trips together. We explore restaurants, we bash our bosses, we make food/snacks for each other. When we are bored, we just go over to the other's home and watch TV with them. And all this is so much more fulfilling than grinding my life away at work. I keep wondering if this rat race life in a big city is worth more than the pleasure I get by just living close to my brother. Who knows if we will be able to do all this tomorrow.
- j7ake 3y ago
  This implies your spouses all had to accommodate your side of the family, presumably the spouses parents don’t live near you guys. Seems to unfair.
  - dang 3y ago
    "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - Klonoar 3y ago
      Uhh, I don’t know if they’re doing that? This is a very real phenomenon that my wife has noted experiencing as well. It’s a kink in the whole thing that’s worth acknowledging.
      - dang 3y ago
        Of course it's a real phenomenon, but it needs to be brought up without jumping to negative conclusions about the person one is talking to. Fortunately nine_zeros gave a nice answer and clarification, but often what happens is that the original commenter feels smacked by the mean interpretation, hits back twice as hard, and we end up with an unfortunate flamewar. This dynamic is in fact one of the main ways we get flamewars, and HN has that guideline to remind us all to consciously avoid it.
  - nine_zeros 3y ago
    Interesting you bring this up because spouses families don't live nearby either. I would certainly consider my spouse's requirements before we move. That said, spouse and I talk a lot about this and we both seem to miss our times with my brother+spouse because they are of our generation. It just makes us all friendly to each other.
HeckFeck 3y ago
I like this idea. I am far from most of my friends and live in a city for work reasons. There are more activities and everything is a lot more accessible. Definitely more promise in the air. That said, I am living alone and feel it. It's not healthy. I do want to be nearer friends and (some) family but ironically I think there are fewer relationship opportunities back in the sticks, plus there are attitudes and people in my home town I really don't miss. I agree with your conclusion - but when younger and single it is difficult to know exactly what to do. Being single being a big problem, and the day to day work from home isolation the other.
- MrFantastic 3y ago
  My experience is that in a big city you can meet people that better fit into your "tribe", the downside is that they leave town for the higher pay job after about 4 years. The only solution is to always be adding new friends, at least that the theory. The implementation is tougher.
  - Kerrick 3y ago
    My wife and I moved to a town of 3,000 in a county of 17,000 during the pandemic. We almost left to go back to a bigger city because we struggled to find “our tribe” — nerds. But just in the last month, we found so many people that we’ve now got three weekly D&D groups running!
granshaw 3y ago
Would just like to say kudos for pulling the very complicated trigger on this This is exactly the kind of thing where 99% of people would like to do but revert to not doing cause the benefits are hard to justify in “traditional” ways (ie financial, career, etc) Again, kudos! EDIT: hoping remote work sticks around and makes this much easier going forward
sargun 3y ago
Why did you both move to non-top tier cities? Wouldn't both living in a top-tier city make sense?
- lazide 3y ago
  Probably expense and lack of options - housing a single family is already expensive (and often difficult to find), two right next to each other? Nearly impossible, and definitely prohibitively expensive in any top tier city. Zuck got a lot of pushback and significant difficulty when buying a couple of adjacent lots in Palo Alto.
- coldtea 3y ago
  For most regular foks "tier" is a budget consideration. And of course usually roots (e.g. being from an area) also plays a big role in their personal "tier" ranking of a city.
- bovermyer 3y ago
  Why would you want to live in a "top-tier" city?
  - sargun 3y ago
    My opinion of lower tier cities is that they don’t have a lot of infrastructure (See: public transit, decent internet, etc…), lack certain kinds of development (bars, coffee shops, restaurants that accommodate diets), and they tend to lack diversity. But this is anec-data, with n=1
  - coffeebeqn 3y ago
    They usually come with top tier amenities. I still miss the nature in/near Seattle almost every day. The job market obviously. Food, “going out” etc
    - SoftTalker 3y ago
      The point of TFA is that you just need to be together with friends, i.e. having dinner or hanging out at each other's houses most likely. You don't need a bunch of amenities. We seem to be doing life backward: We live alone and expend effort to gather together, as if that’s the healthy baseline
e-master 3y ago
We pulled a similar move last year - moved back to Europe from North America after living there for 10+ years. It was a very expensive and risky move, and just like you, I’m also unsure if it will work out great in the long term, but I can tell you I feel great, I am finally in the same time zone as my brother and parents, they can visit pretty much any time, and heck even when my in-laws are in town, and I see them having breakfast with the kids on a Sunday morning, I feel like my life is finally complete.
- YeBanKo 3y ago
  Why do feel uncertainly about it’s working out?
- basisword 3y ago
  Curious about the kids. I know kids will generally make friends wherever they go, especially when young, but my closest friends have been with me since I started school. 30 years later we’re still very close despite being a bit further apart. I think any significant move after approx age 13 and I wouldn’t have been able to develop those relationships starting somewhere new.
  - e-master 3y ago
    Kids were 7 and 2 when we moved. Probably the biggest factor in timing the move was their age - I assumed that if we didn’t move then, then we won’t ever do it, as the children would grow older and it would make reintegration really difficult. One year on they are doing well, even learned a new language! And of course they do enjoy and always look forward to the frequent visits of friends and relatives.
    - basisword 3y ago
      Thanks for the response. Sounds like the ideal age!
philipkglass 3y ago
Due to unrelated and unexpected events, my mother, my sister, my sister's husband, and my wife's sister have all moved to within a few miles of my family within the past year. Previously they were all living in a different state from us. My father is dead, but having the rest of my close family nearby has made me so much happier. I wasn't unhappy before, but this much better yet. I realize it's not a happiness booster in every circumstance. My wife moved a thousand miles specifically so she never had to suffer her mother again.
- hinkley 3y ago
  When I left college I moved a quarter of the way around the globe. Now I'm a mere 2000 miles away.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  > and my sister's sister Is this a step or half sister’s step or half sister? Otherwise I cannot make sense of the relationship.
  - philipkglass 3y ago
    That was a mistake. It should have been "my wife's sister." (Now fixed, thanks!)
aprdm 3y ago
Very nice! I've thought about something similar. Of course that a challenge is when you marry someone from yet-another nationality. Our plan right now is to try to get key members of the family that want to be together to where we're at even if we help them financially to migrate/move, since we have very good financial situation and the people we're targetting are mostly empty nesters or work in similar field.
aftergibson 3y ago
I wish I could somehow evaluate what you're suggesting and understand if the outcome would be worth the effort. It would be SO, SO, SO much effort. I feel good being nearer my family but would that sour if I spent more time than the occasional holiday? Would the support my family might provide be worth the effort of selling our home, changing jobs, changing so how much of our lives work? Sometimes I long for it but the effort makes it... unjustifiable.
cmarschner 3y ago
I don‘t get it. The two of you now live closer together, but what about your spouses? What about the friends of your kids?
- basisword 3y ago
  I’m curious about this too. My partner and I are both from different cities and live in a third city. We have friends and family in the original two cities and friends in the third city. There’s no way to make it work for both of us, and in fact the neutral third city is probably the most fair option despite being far from the best for either of us.
  - addaon 3y ago
    The implicit definition of "fair" as "equal suffering" is always a bit concerning to me.
    - basisword 3y ago
      I get your point but the compromise isn’t “suffering”. We’re perfectly happy in the third city. It’s the moving to the original cities that could cause one persons suffering for another maximisation of their happiness.
    - malauxyeux 3y ago
      > The implicit definition of "fair" as "equal suffering" is always a bit concerning to me. For family peace, it may be the best thing. My personal anecdote: I'm from city A. My spouse is from city B. We lived in city C. Our parents were fine with that. My mother-in-law developed a rare disease. She had no children nearby. Now we live in city B, close to her. In city A, despite having two of my siblings nearby, my parents absolutely resented our move. They were quite hostile at some point. That sent my spouse to therapy and there's been no contact between them since. I'm fully on my spouse's side, especially given what my parents said and did. But the move has taken a real toll.
      - 3y ago
SoftTalker 3y ago
Weird. I see my brother rarely, like once or twice a year, though we live less than two hours apart. It always seems like it is a big disruption or effort to have to get together. When we do, we don't have much to talk about. After it's over, I feel completely exhausted.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  I think it’s relationship dependent. My brother is my favorite person, my “forever friend,” and seeing him always fills my emotional cup.
Willish42 3y ago
I remember reading this when it came out, but couldn't remember the name and was too scared to type "articles about imminent death and our limited time with loved ones" into a search bar. I've since lost my parents in my 20s, significantly earlier than expected, but found this weirdly comforting on a second read realizing that most of our quality time had indeed been in the first two decades of my life, regardless of what happened. It definitely makes me think about working to stay close / become closer with loved ones I have left. Thanks for sharing this. Life's short and I admire your effort to live closer with your brother. Congrats on your "experiment" :)
M5x7wI3CmbEem10 3y ago
why separate houses instead of one large home?

nine_zeros 3y ago

I loved your post because I have been living away from my younger brother (and parents) for over 10 years. We meet about once every 2 years. Every time we meet each other, I feel - great. Just amazing. We just sit and shoot the shit like nothing changed. We care for each other's lives. Just sitting with beers or staying over at each other's place makes me feel belonged. Our spouses love hanging out with us. We all go on trips together. We explore restaurants, we bash our bosses, we make food/snacks for each other. When we are bored, we just go over to the other's home and watch TV with them. And all this is so much more fulfilling than grinding my life away at work. I keep wondering if this rat race life in a big city is worth more than the pleasure I get by just living close to my brother. Who knows if we will be able to do all this tomorrow.

j7ake 3y ago
This implies your spouses all had to accommodate your side of the family, presumably the spouses parents don’t live near you guys. Seems to unfair.
- dang 3y ago
  "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - Klonoar 3y ago
    Uhh, I don’t know if they’re doing that? This is a very real phenomenon that my wife has noted experiencing as well. It’s a kink in the whole thing that’s worth acknowledging.
    - dang 3y ago
      Of course it's a real phenomenon, but it needs to be brought up without jumping to negative conclusions about the person one is talking to. Fortunately nine_zeros gave a nice answer and clarification, but often what happens is that the original commenter feels smacked by the mean interpretation, hits back twice as hard, and we end up with an unfortunate flamewar. This dynamic is in fact one of the main ways we get flamewars, and HN has that guideline to remind us all to consciously avoid it.
- nine_zeros 3y ago
  Interesting you bring this up because spouses families don't live nearby either. I would certainly consider my spouse's requirements before we move. That said, spouse and I talk a lot about this and we both seem to miss our times with my brother+spouse because they are of our generation. It just makes us all friendly to each other.

HeckFeck 3y ago

I like this idea. I am far from most of my friends and live in a city for work reasons. There are more activities and everything is a lot more accessible. Definitely more promise in the air. That said, I am living alone and feel it. It's not healthy. I do want to be nearer friends and (some) family but ironically I think there are fewer relationship opportunities back in the sticks, plus there are attitudes and people in my home town I really don't miss. I agree with your conclusion - but when younger and single it is difficult to know exactly what to do. Being single being a big problem, and the day to day work from home isolation the other.

MrFantastic 3y ago
My experience is that in a big city you can meet people that better fit into your "tribe", the downside is that they leave town for the higher pay job after about 4 years. The only solution is to always be adding new friends, at least that the theory. The implementation is tougher.
- Kerrick 3y ago
  My wife and I moved to a town of 3,000 in a county of 17,000 during the pandemic. We almost left to go back to a bigger city because we struggled to find “our tribe” — nerds. But just in the last month, we found so many people that we’ve now got three weekly D&D groups running!

granshaw 3y ago

Would just like to say kudos for pulling the very complicated trigger on this This is exactly the kind of thing where 99% of people would like to do but revert to not doing cause the benefits are hard to justify in “traditional” ways (ie financial, career, etc) Again, kudos! EDIT: hoping remote work sticks around and makes this much easier going forward

sargun 3y ago

Why did you both move to non-top tier cities? Wouldn't both living in a top-tier city make sense?

lazide 3y ago
Probably expense and lack of options - housing a single family is already expensive (and often difficult to find), two right next to each other? Nearly impossible, and definitely prohibitively expensive in any top tier city. Zuck got a lot of pushback and significant difficulty when buying a couple of adjacent lots in Palo Alto.
coldtea 3y ago
For most regular foks "tier" is a budget consideration. And of course usually roots (e.g. being from an area) also plays a big role in their personal "tier" ranking of a city.
bovermyer 3y ago
Why would you want to live in a "top-tier" city?
- sargun 3y ago
  My opinion of lower tier cities is that they don’t have a lot of infrastructure (See: public transit, decent internet, etc…), lack certain kinds of development (bars, coffee shops, restaurants that accommodate diets), and they tend to lack diversity. But this is anec-data, with n=1
- coffeebeqn 3y ago
  They usually come with top tier amenities. I still miss the nature in/near Seattle almost every day. The job market obviously. Food, “going out” etc
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    The point of TFA is that you just need to be together with friends, i.e. having dinner or hanging out at each other's houses most likely. You don't need a bunch of amenities. We seem to be doing life backward: We live alone and expend effort to gather together, as if that’s the healthy baseline

e-master 3y ago

We pulled a similar move last year - moved back to Europe from North America after living there for 10+ years. It was a very expensive and risky move, and just like you, I’m also unsure if it will work out great in the long term, but I can tell you I feel great, I am finally in the same time zone as my brother and parents, they can visit pretty much any time, and heck even when my in-laws are in town, and I see them having breakfast with the kids on a Sunday morning, I feel like my life is finally complete.

YeBanKo 3y ago
Why do feel uncertainly about it’s working out?
basisword 3y ago
Curious about the kids. I know kids will generally make friends wherever they go, especially when young, but my closest friends have been with me since I started school. 30 years later we’re still very close despite being a bit further apart. I think any significant move after approx age 13 and I wouldn’t have been able to develop those relationships starting somewhere new.
- e-master 3y ago
  Kids were 7 and 2 when we moved. Probably the biggest factor in timing the move was their age - I assumed that if we didn’t move then, then we won’t ever do it, as the children would grow older and it would make reintegration really difficult. One year on they are doing well, even learned a new language! And of course they do enjoy and always look forward to the frequent visits of friends and relatives.
  - basisword 3y ago
    Thanks for the response. Sounds like the ideal age!

philipkglass 3y ago

Due to unrelated and unexpected events, my mother, my sister, my sister's husband, and my wife's sister have all moved to within a few miles of my family within the past year. Previously they were all living in a different state from us. My father is dead, but having the rest of my close family nearby has made me so much happier. I wasn't unhappy before, but this much better yet. I realize it's not a happiness booster in every circumstance. My wife moved a thousand miles specifically so she never had to suffer her mother again.

hinkley 3y ago
When I left college I moved a quarter of the way around the globe. Now I'm a mere 2000 miles away.
lotsofpulp 3y ago
> and my sister's sister Is this a step or half sister’s step or half sister? Otherwise I cannot make sense of the relationship.
- philipkglass 3y ago
  That was a mistake. It should have been "my wife's sister." (Now fixed, thanks!)

aprdm 3y ago

Very nice! I've thought about something similar. Of course that a challenge is when you marry someone from yet-another nationality. Our plan right now is to try to get key members of the family that want to be together to where we're at even if we help them financially to migrate/move, since we have very good financial situation and the people we're targetting are mostly empty nesters or work in similar field.

aftergibson 3y ago

I wish I could somehow evaluate what you're suggesting and understand if the outcome would be worth the effort. It would be SO, SO, SO much effort. I feel good being nearer my family but would that sour if I spent more time than the occasional holiday? Would the support my family might provide be worth the effort of selling our home, changing jobs, changing so how much of our lives work? Sometimes I long for it but the effort makes it... unjustifiable.

cmarschner 3y ago

I don‘t get it. The two of you now live closer together, but what about your spouses? What about the friends of your kids?

basisword 3y ago
I’m curious about this too. My partner and I are both from different cities and live in a third city. We have friends and family in the original two cities and friends in the third city. There’s no way to make it work for both of us, and in fact the neutral third city is probably the most fair option despite being far from the best for either of us.
- addaon 3y ago
  The implicit definition of "fair" as "equal suffering" is always a bit concerning to me.
  - basisword 3y ago
    I get your point but the compromise isn’t “suffering”. We’re perfectly happy in the third city. It’s the moving to the original cities that could cause one persons suffering for another maximisation of their happiness.
  - malauxyeux 3y ago
    > The implicit definition of "fair" as "equal suffering" is always a bit concerning to me. For family peace, it may be the best thing. My personal anecdote: I'm from city A. My spouse is from city B. We lived in city C. Our parents were fine with that. My mother-in-law developed a rare disease. She had no children nearby. Now we live in city B, close to her. In city A, despite having two of my siblings nearby, my parents absolutely resented our move. They were quite hostile at some point. That sent my spouse to therapy and there's been no contact between them since. I'm fully on my spouse's side, especially given what my parents said and did. But the move has taken a real toll.
    - 3y ago

SoftTalker 3y ago

Weird. I see my brother rarely, like once or twice a year, though we live less than two hours apart. It always seems like it is a big disruption or effort to have to get together. When we do, we don't have much to talk about. After it's over, I feel completely exhausted.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
I think it’s relationship dependent. My brother is my favorite person, my “forever friend,” and seeing him always fills my emotional cup.

Willish42 3y ago

I remember reading this when it came out, but couldn't remember the name and was too scared to type "articles about imminent death and our limited time with loved ones" into a search bar. I've since lost my parents in my 20s, significantly earlier than expected, but found this weirdly comforting on a second read realizing that most of our quality time had indeed been in the first two decades of my life, regardless of what happened. It definitely makes me think about working to stay close / become closer with loved ones I have left. Thanks for sharing this. Life's short and I admire your effort to live closer with your brother. Congrats on your "experiment" :)

M5x7wI3CmbEem10 3y ago

why separate houses instead of one large home?