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Are you implying that it is unions that cause corporations to seek offshoring, automation etc.? From where I stand it’s a constant race to extract more from wo

Are you implying that it is unions that cause corporations to seek offshoring, automation etc.? From where I stand it’s a constant race to extract more from workers and unions and possibly legislation are some of the very few forces impeding it.

Spivak 3y ago
> Are you implying that it is unions that cause corporations to seek offshoring, automation etc.? Well that's at least the spooky scary threat that companies use to get people to not join union so my bet is that it's total bullshit and if they could already offshore their workers and factories they would have done so already. Milk those higher wages and benefits while they're still here because they won't change the calculus at all when compared to workers who will work for single digit dollars a day.
- billy99k 3y ago
  That isn't the point. When the union is involved, they keep demanding hire wages and benefits and it gets to the point where companies are better-off offshoring. Just look at the automotive industry. They have not only been offshoring, but the unions have strangled them to the point where it nearly destroyed the industry. I will only buy non-US cars as a result of this (mostly because of poor qualit).
  - specialist 3y ago
    Accelerating inequity and record corporate profits are just a coincidence?
  - Spivak 3y ago
    That makes no since because foreign companies are onshoring manufacturing. There's a good chance your foreign car was made here. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Honda_Motor_Company https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Honda_Motor_Company https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_of_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_of_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Motor_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Motor_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Motor_North_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Motor_North_America The fact that The Ford Dodge GM Chrysler Jeep Dr Pepper Snapple Group can't make a quality car is on them. In real dollars American workers have never cost less. Those fat-cat union workers making… $45k/yr. Don't they understand how their greed affects our profits?
    - wilg 3y ago
      None of those companies auto workers are unionized in the US.
      - Spivak 3y ago
        But they're still in the US and paying near identical wages to UAW plants so it's not unions "ever demanding higher wages" that makes the difference. But maybe not forever since the UAW strike those unionized workers might gasp make the same amount they did pre-inflation in real dollars. The greedy bastards not taking a pay cut while the cost of the cars go up and those companies make record profits. Won't you think of the poor owners who are demanding higher returns, I think we can all sacrifice for them.
        wilg 3y ago
        OK
braza 3y ago
> Are you implying that it is unions that cause corporations to seek offshoring, automation etc.? Not for this _single_ reason. The decision for offshoring/nearshoring is a multifaceted one. Companies that have the risk to be locked in a workforce monopoly and does not have the capability to offshore/nearshore work positions, will fight with nail and tooth attempts for uniontization
specialist 3y ago
Yup. Capital pushes to commodify skills and labor. We as "knowledge workers" know this in our bones. Now that we've digitized and automated blue collar work, we're tackling white collar work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros
- rexpop 3y ago
  But we haven't "digitized and automated blue collar work." Not by the a long shot. We've still got vast billions toiling in our service.
  - specialist 3y ago
    What's the skill level required for those billions of jobs?
    - rexpop 3y ago
      Skill level? It's the same opportunity cost as any career.
- doubleg72 3y ago
  Tell that to all the factory workers still moving parts around plants in small towns all across the US. Tell that to the healthcare workers at hospitals, assisted living facilities, and medical practices. May even tell that to construction workers, machinists, carpenters, HVAC guys, building controls, and even network engineers. You live in a fantasy world.
zeroonetwothree 3y ago
Inasmuch as unions increase the cost of labor, employers will have a stronger incentive to replace it with capital. It’s one reason we haven’t seen much advancement (until recently!) in automated food preparation (vis-a-vis industrial factories)—the labor has been very cheap.
- autoexec 3y ago
  Any human worker will increase the cost of labor compared to automation. Even at slave wages, automation wins every single time. Employers are, and long have been, 100% incentivized to automate the instant it becomes technologically feasible. Research and advancement in automated food preparation has never stopped. They were working on the problem in the 1970s with automatic vending machines, Fast food in particular has been salivating at thought of throwing out human workers for ages. (see for example: https://www.deseret.com/2003/8/11/19740875/mcdonald-s-flips-for-inventions https://www.deseret.com/2003/8/11/19740875/mcdonald-s-flips-... and https://www.wfmynews2.com/article/news/local/mcdonalds-testing-self-serve-kiosks-in-raleigh-denver/83-404008779 https://www.wfmynews2.com/article/news/local/mcdonalds-testi... and https://www.cnet.com/culture/mcdonalds-hires-7000-touch-screen-cashiers/ https://www.cnet.com/culture/mcdonalds-hires-7000-touch-scre...) The very second that the tech is ready and reliable enough, it's a done deal. No worker will ever be as cheap as a robot slave.

Spivak 3y ago

> Are you implying that it is unions that cause corporations to seek offshoring, automation etc.? Well that's at least the spooky scary threat that companies use to get people to not join union so my bet is that it's total bullshit and if they could already offshore their workers and factories they would have done so already. Milk those higher wages and benefits while they're still here because they won't change the calculus at all when compared to workers who will work for single digit dollars a day.

billy99k 3y ago
That isn't the point. When the union is involved, they keep demanding hire wages and benefits and it gets to the point where companies are better-off offshoring. Just look at the automotive industry. They have not only been offshoring, but the unions have strangled them to the point where it nearly destroyed the industry. I will only buy non-US cars as a result of this (mostly because of poor qualit).
- specialist 3y ago
  Accelerating inequity and record corporate profits are just a coincidence?
- Spivak 3y ago
  That makes no since because foreign companies are onshoring manufacturing. There's a good chance your foreign car was made here. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Honda_Motor_Company https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Honda_Motor_Company https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_of_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_of_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Motor_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Motor_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Motor_North_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Motor_North_America The fact that The Ford Dodge GM Chrysler Jeep Dr Pepper Snapple Group can't make a quality car is on them. In real dollars American workers have never cost less. Those fat-cat union workers making… $45k/yr. Don't they understand how their greed affects our profits?
  - wilg 3y ago
    None of those companies auto workers are unionized in the US.
    - Spivak 3y ago
      But they're still in the US and paying near identical wages to UAW plants so it's not unions "ever demanding higher wages" that makes the difference. But maybe not forever since the UAW strike those unionized workers might gasp make the same amount they did pre-inflation in real dollars. The greedy bastards not taking a pay cut while the cost of the cars go up and those companies make record profits. Won't you think of the poor owners who are demanding higher returns, I think we can all sacrifice for them.
      - wilg 3y ago
        OK

braza 3y ago

> Are you implying that it is unions that cause corporations to seek offshoring, automation etc.? Not for this _single_ reason. The decision for offshoring/nearshoring is a multifaceted one. Companies that have the risk to be locked in a workforce monopoly and does not have the capability to offshore/nearshore work positions, will fight with nail and tooth attempts for uniontization

specialist 3y ago

Yup. Capital pushes to commodify skills and labor. We as "knowledge workers" know this in our bones. Now that we've digitized and automated blue collar work, we're tackling white collar work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros

rexpop 3y ago
But we haven't "digitized and automated blue collar work." Not by the a long shot. We've still got vast billions toiling in our service.
- specialist 3y ago
  What's the skill level required for those billions of jobs?
  - rexpop 3y ago
    Skill level? It's the same opportunity cost as any career.
doubleg72 3y ago
Tell that to all the factory workers still moving parts around plants in small towns all across the US. Tell that to the healthcare workers at hospitals, assisted living facilities, and medical practices. May even tell that to construction workers, machinists, carpenters, HVAC guys, building controls, and even network engineers. You live in a fantasy world.

zeroonetwothree 3y ago

Inasmuch as unions increase the cost of labor, employers will have a stronger incentive to replace it with capital. It’s one reason we haven’t seen much advancement (until recently!) in automated food preparation (vis-a-vis industrial factories)—the labor has been very cheap.

autoexec 3y ago
Any human worker will increase the cost of labor compared to automation. Even at slave wages, automation wins every single time. Employers are, and long have been, 100% incentivized to automate the instant it becomes technologically feasible. Research and advancement in automated food preparation has never stopped. They were working on the problem in the 1970s with automatic vending machines, Fast food in particular has been salivating at thought of throwing out human workers for ages. (see for example: https://www.deseret.com/2003/8/11/19740875/mcdonald-s-flips-for-inventions https://www.deseret.com/2003/8/11/19740875/mcdonald-s-flips-... and https://www.wfmynews2.com/article/news/local/mcdonalds-testing-self-serve-kiosks-in-raleigh-denver/83-404008779 https://www.wfmynews2.com/article/news/local/mcdonalds-testi... and https://www.cnet.com/culture/mcdonalds-hires-7000-touch-screen-cashiers/ https://www.cnet.com/culture/mcdonalds-hires-7000-touch-scre...) The very second that the tech is ready and reliable enough, it's a done deal. No worker will ever be as cheap as a robot slave.