4 ms·

No I get it, warehousing poor and mentally ill people in prisons definitely hides social problems from rich people & lets us pretend we've fixed something meani

No I get it, warehousing poor and mentally ill people in prisons definitely hides social problems from rich people & lets us pretend we've fixed something meaningful. Cops & prisons are a great way to do that.

ianbutler 3y ago
I wonder how much of the car robberies are mentally ill people? I wonder how much of the shop lifting is mentally ill people? Hiding actual criminals behind a group that does deserve help while doing nothing to protect your every day populace is absurd. It's not just hiding social problems from rich people, it's protecting the shift worker who's car window just got smashed for the 3rd time in a year and really can't afford that shit.
- rolha-capoeira 3y ago
  Putting aside mental illness, what makes a person a criminal? What circumstances led to their decision? Sure, protect the shift worker who has little power and therefore little blame. But, who's to blame for society's ills then? Calling for more arrests and incarceration has never, ever solved the underlying issues. What Garry Tan doesn't realize or won't admit is that he is part of the wealthy caste that caused this. Now that he got his money? Lock all of these bad people up!
  - ianbutler 3y ago
    Society's ills? I think we're talking about just SF. The rest of the nation seems to handle things at a better rate, per my comment about NYC where I live. So what is special about SF except lax rule of law? I agree heavy sentences and private jails and, what is clearly a planned system to take offenders and make sure they can't re integrate into society are terrible and we need reform in the jail system. Policing, as a deterrent, and arresting for petty crime however are effective. The threat of punishment is an effective deterrent. The fact we have a draconian system after that point is unfortunate, but if I understand SF doesn't even present the threat.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - mattdeboard 3y ago
      > The threat of punishment is an effective deterrent. > [Police] arresting for petty crime however [is] effective Incorrect. These are myths that people fall back on when they want to advocate for the same policy positions that have produced worse social outcomes for at least the past 40 years. The same thing, over and over again, driven by the belief that punishment must be involved to deter crime. The threat of punishment has zero effect on deterrence. "Certainty of being caught" apparently does, but as you build a police force that makes getting caught of committing a crime a certainty, you have already fallen into the same trap America (and her cities) fall into over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over and over and over and over and over and over again. https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf
      - ianbutler 3y ago
        "1. The certainty of being caught is a vastly more powerful deterrent than the punishment. Research shows clearly that the chance of being caught is a vastly more effective deterrent than even draconian punishment. " That's my point, and it was the first bullet point in what you linked. Can't be worried about being caught if there is no policing.
        mattdeboard 3y ago
        Right, and that's why I said: > "Certainty of being caught" apparently does [provide a deterrent effect], but as you build a police force that makes getting caught of committing a crime a certainty, you have already fallen into the same trap America (and her cities) fall into over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Police aren't a solution. They're a problem. That's not to say there's no UPSIDE. It's to say there are trade-offs and I think they have been proven by history to be unfavorable trade-offs in the long view.
- mattdeboard 3y ago
  Yes I understand your position. I've been listening to variations on the theme for decades. You're still rehashing the same policy positions that have only ever created more problems than they've solved.
  - ianbutler 3y ago
    Clearly this other way is failing terribly in SF. No one in power has any interest in upending the entire US penal system, I understand this upsets you. The reality is those people won't be helped in the way you want maybe ever. I don't agree that letting otherwise law abiding average people suffer the consequences because of that is okay. I also don't see people taking the needed action to make these changes you want. For all the extreme positions of complete reform that I see they only come to me online in talk. I'm a moderate I really don't share the passion, but if I did I'd be taking more physical action to enact it than I see.
    - mattdeboard 3y ago
      > I'm a moderate shocking > law abiding average people suffer the consequences law-abiding average people suffer the consequences of increased policing and incarceration, it's just law-abiding average people you don't see or share community with.
      - ianbutler 3y ago
        Moderates in my experience are the only people who seem to have a grasp on reality. So far you've just been angry and provided no workable alternatives. Let crime run rampant isn't workable. What is your proposed solution to crime in SF? Is it feasibly executed? This entire conversation is you saying what doesn't work without providing a realistic alternative.

ianbutler 3y ago

I wonder how much of the car robberies are mentally ill people? I wonder how much of the shop lifting is mentally ill people? Hiding actual criminals behind a group that does deserve help while doing nothing to protect your every day populace is absurd. It's not just hiding social problems from rich people, it's protecting the shift worker who's car window just got smashed for the 3rd time in a year and really can't afford that shit.

rolha-capoeira 3y ago
Putting aside mental illness, what makes a person a criminal? What circumstances led to their decision? Sure, protect the shift worker who has little power and therefore little blame. But, who's to blame for society's ills then? Calling for more arrests and incarceration has never, ever solved the underlying issues. What Garry Tan doesn't realize or won't admit is that he is part of the wealthy caste that caused this. Now that he got his money? Lock all of these bad people up!
- ianbutler 3y ago
  Society's ills? I think we're talking about just SF. The rest of the nation seems to handle things at a better rate, per my comment about NYC where I live. So what is special about SF except lax rule of law? I agree heavy sentences and private jails and, what is clearly a planned system to take offenders and make sure they can't re integrate into society are terrible and we need reform in the jail system. Policing, as a deterrent, and arresting for petty crime however are effective. The threat of punishment is an effective deterrent. The fact we have a draconian system after that point is unfortunate, but if I understand SF doesn't even present the threat.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - mattdeboard 3y ago
    > The threat of punishment is an effective deterrent. > [Police] arresting for petty crime however [is] effective Incorrect. These are myths that people fall back on when they want to advocate for the same policy positions that have produced worse social outcomes for at least the past 40 years. The same thing, over and over again, driven by the belief that punishment must be involved to deter crime. The threat of punishment has zero effect on deterrence. "Certainty of being caught" apparently does, but as you build a police force that makes getting caught of committing a crime a certainty, you have already fallen into the same trap America (and her cities) fall into over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over and over and over and over and over and over again. https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf
    - ianbutler 3y ago
      "1. The certainty of being caught is a vastly more powerful deterrent than the punishment. Research shows clearly that the chance of being caught is a vastly more effective deterrent than even draconian punishment. " That's my point, and it was the first bullet point in what you linked. Can't be worried about being caught if there is no policing.
      - mattdeboard 3y ago
        Right, and that's why I said: > "Certainty of being caught" apparently does [provide a deterrent effect], but as you build a police force that makes getting caught of committing a crime a certainty, you have already fallen into the same trap America (and her cities) fall into over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Police aren't a solution. They're a problem. That's not to say there's no UPSIDE. It's to say there are trade-offs and I think they have been proven by history to be unfavorable trade-offs in the long view.
mattdeboard 3y ago
Yes I understand your position. I've been listening to variations on the theme for decades. You're still rehashing the same policy positions that have only ever created more problems than they've solved.
- ianbutler 3y ago
  Clearly this other way is failing terribly in SF. No one in power has any interest in upending the entire US penal system, I understand this upsets you. The reality is those people won't be helped in the way you want maybe ever. I don't agree that letting otherwise law abiding average people suffer the consequences because of that is okay. I also don't see people taking the needed action to make these changes you want. For all the extreme positions of complete reform that I see they only come to me online in talk. I'm a moderate I really don't share the passion, but if I did I'd be taking more physical action to enact it than I see.
  - mattdeboard 3y ago
    > I'm a moderate shocking > law abiding average people suffer the consequences law-abiding average people suffer the consequences of increased policing and incarceration, it's just law-abiding average people you don't see or share community with.
    - ianbutler 3y ago
      Moderates in my experience are the only people who seem to have a grasp on reality. So far you've just been angry and provided no workable alternatives. Let crime run rampant isn't workable. What is your proposed solution to crime in SF? Is it feasibly executed? This entire conversation is you saying what doesn't work without providing a realistic alternative.