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Hey keyboard and computer enthusiast! I need your help! Any other keyboard I've ever tried hurts my wrists, arm, and back, and causes me pain except the "Micro

Hey keyboard and computer enthusiast! I need your help! Any other keyboard I've ever tried hurts my wrists, arm, and back, and causes me pain except the "Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000". However they were discontinued years ago. :( I've been buying up used ones and learning how to disassemble and repair the ones I have the best I can, but my skills are limited. If anyone has any (unopened) ones or knows of good replacements or how to make a new replacement (with same layout). I'd be incredibly grateful. Most alternatives don't really have the wrist/angle support which is the #1. Then the arrow keys/home/pgup pgdn keys is next most important, and lastly the numpad and F1-F12 row keys. I don't care about special top row buttons or any of the 'special' keys on it. Also, before people mention it, the Arisu or Feker Alice layout keyboards is nothing at all like the same wrist/angle support, it's basically just a split keyboard. :/ Most suggestions have missed the whole point of wrist/angle support being the issue. I don't mind it being mechanical or anything so long as it's the basically the same layout/angle as the Microsoft ergo 4000. The replacement 'Microsoft ergonomic keyboard' non 4000 is 'okayish' but not as good as 4000. Other than those 2, I've never found one even remotely close to my needs. Thanks! <3

chrisco255 3y ago
This is what I personally use: https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/. The angle and pitch are totally customizable. Fantastic highly modifiable keyboard.
- namrog84 3y ago
  That's definitely an interesting one I hadn't seen before. I game a lot, so some of the features like the offset ASD(though this might be better?) and lack of bigger caps/tabs/shift/ctrl are definitely concerns for me here. I'll definitely keep it on my shirt list of keyboards to maybe try out one day.
  - chrisco255 3y ago
    I game a lot too. You can remap everything on that keyboard from a simple UI tool, and even toggle between "layers" for things like custom profiles for each game you might play (and any macros you want to assign to specific keys). It did take me a couple of days to get used to the layout before I started to surpass my previous wpm, but it was worth the investment.
- poszlem 3y ago
  On the other hand, I've tried many keyboards, including the ErgoDox and Kinesis Advantage, with the latter being the most comfortable for me. While the Moonlander boasts impressive customizability, I found its untypical angle of the thumb cluster to be a drawback for my personal typing experience. Given its premium price point and the extended delivery time from Taiwan (mine took almost a month to come to the UK), I'd strongly recommend trying it out before making a purchase to ensure it meets your ergonomic needs and avoids potential disappointment.
  - chrisco255 3y ago
    It arrived in less than one week for me, and I purchased relatively recently.
- flamwenco 3y ago
  As someone who used to daily a Microsoft Sculpt and has tried the Moonlander... I would say it is much much more specific in who it is good for out of the box. If you want tenting but also don't have giant hands, it's not a good fit imo. I don't think my hands are tiny, but because the thumb cluster is used as the tenting leg, in order to achieve a comfortable tenting angle, I had to give up using most of the thumb cluster because I simply couldn't reach it without moving my hand, which defeats the point. There are solutions to work around this (namely the tripod pucks or printing additional tenting legs), but it feels like a fundamental design flaw with the moonlander that should not be there given the premium price. Also as an aside, I hate that they went with rattly as hell costar stabs for the red thumb keys, they're awful on a keyboard in this price bracket. I'd really recommend something like the lily58 (there is a variant called the lulu that has tenting legs available) or if you're feeling daring with going smaller, the corne over the moonlander.
heresie-dabord 3y ago
> Most alternatives don't really have the wrist/angle support which is the #1. Hear hear! Adesso makes an ergonomic keyboard similar to the discontinued MSFT series. I also have found that the Goldtouch V2 keyboard can be adjusted for a variety of human geometries using the split and the ball joint. https://shop.goldtouch.com/products/goldtouch-v2-adjustable-comfort-keyboard-pc-only https://shop.goldtouch.com/products/goldtouch-v2-adjustable-...
- namrog84 3y ago
  That adesso is easily the closest thing I've seen! Thanks for that! I hadn't come across that one before! Do you know if the 'front' can raise up like the 4000 can? Like this https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71FzIG1rqBL.jpg https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71FzIG1rqBL.jpg
tqwhite 3y ago
I use the Apple keyboard. It is very, very low profile. I have had wrist trouble but not in this context.
nprateem 3y ago
I used this for 15 years and now within 5 minutes it gives me crippling RSI. Now, going from an ergo keyboard with 35g keys to this it's obvious just how much effort it takes to press the keys. Either way gutted I can't use this any more .
probablycarrots 3y ago
The 4000 is by far my favorite keyboard and I also have a small stockpile. Over the years I've tried dozens of alternatives and never found anything with the appropriate wrist/hand angle. Everything about it is perfect for me. If I were wealthy I'd try having one commissioned. I'm sort of terrified that one day I'll be forced to use something else. I tried many of the adjustable modern split keyboards that come in two halves (and are missing 10-key) but absolutely despise having half of my keyboard move around. The trend of keyboards cut in half doesn't make any sense to me. I never look at the thing and I expect every key to be exactly where I left it.
- namrog84 3y ago
  I've considered looking into getting like a custom order of 100 (or maybe 1000) units keyboards made similar-ish to the 4000. And trying to sell them. I think there is enough of us. I just have my fingers crossed that microsoft eventually makes a 'surface' brand version similiar enough to the 4000. or I find a way to properly replicate/replace the 4000s in some custom way.
w10-1 3y ago
Try the Kinesis Advantage II or 360 (with low-force keys): https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-lfq/ The curved key well means the wrist can avoid moving and hence avoid carpal tunnel syndrome. Moving the high-traffic enter and modifier keys to the thumb helps a lot, too. It has an embedded number pad, so you just toggle "keypad" and use the same keys.

chrisco255 3y ago

This is what I personally use: https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/. The angle and pitch are totally customizable. Fantastic highly modifiable keyboard.

namrog84 3y ago
That's definitely an interesting one I hadn't seen before. I game a lot, so some of the features like the offset ASD(though this might be better?) and lack of bigger caps/tabs/shift/ctrl are definitely concerns for me here. I'll definitely keep it on my shirt list of keyboards to maybe try out one day.
- chrisco255 3y ago
  I game a lot too. You can remap everything on that keyboard from a simple UI tool, and even toggle between "layers" for things like custom profiles for each game you might play (and any macros you want to assign to specific keys). It did take me a couple of days to get used to the layout before I started to surpass my previous wpm, but it was worth the investment.
poszlem 3y ago
On the other hand, I've tried many keyboards, including the ErgoDox and Kinesis Advantage, with the latter being the most comfortable for me. While the Moonlander boasts impressive customizability, I found its untypical angle of the thumb cluster to be a drawback for my personal typing experience. Given its premium price point and the extended delivery time from Taiwan (mine took almost a month to come to the UK), I'd strongly recommend trying it out before making a purchase to ensure it meets your ergonomic needs and avoids potential disappointment.
- chrisco255 3y ago
  It arrived in less than one week for me, and I purchased relatively recently.
flamwenco 3y ago
As someone who used to daily a Microsoft Sculpt and has tried the Moonlander... I would say it is much much more specific in who it is good for out of the box. If you want tenting but also don't have giant hands, it's not a good fit imo. I don't think my hands are tiny, but because the thumb cluster is used as the tenting leg, in order to achieve a comfortable tenting angle, I had to give up using most of the thumb cluster because I simply couldn't reach it without moving my hand, which defeats the point. There are solutions to work around this (namely the tripod pucks or printing additional tenting legs), but it feels like a fundamental design flaw with the moonlander that should not be there given the premium price. Also as an aside, I hate that they went with rattly as hell costar stabs for the red thumb keys, they're awful on a keyboard in this price bracket. I'd really recommend something like the lily58 (there is a variant called the lulu that has tenting legs available) or if you're feeling daring with going smaller, the corne over the moonlander.

heresie-dabord 3y ago

> Most alternatives don't really have the wrist/angle support which is the #1. Hear hear! Adesso makes an ergonomic keyboard similar to the discontinued MSFT series. I also have found that the Goldtouch V2 keyboard can be adjusted for a variety of human geometries using the split and the ball joint. https://shop.goldtouch.com/products/goldtouch-v2-adjustable-comfort-keyboard-pc-only https://shop.goldtouch.com/products/goldtouch-v2-adjustable-...

namrog84 3y ago
That adesso is easily the closest thing I've seen! Thanks for that! I hadn't come across that one before! Do you know if the 'front' can raise up like the 4000 can? Like this https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71FzIG1rqBL.jpg https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71FzIG1rqBL.jpg

tqwhite 3y ago

I use the Apple keyboard. It is very, very low profile. I have had wrist trouble but not in this context.

nprateem 3y ago

I used this for 15 years and now within 5 minutes it gives me crippling RSI. Now, going from an ergo keyboard with 35g keys to this it's obvious just how much effort it takes to press the keys. Either way gutted I can't use this any more .

probablycarrots 3y ago

The 4000 is by far my favorite keyboard and I also have a small stockpile. Over the years I've tried dozens of alternatives and never found anything with the appropriate wrist/hand angle. Everything about it is perfect for me. If I were wealthy I'd try having one commissioned. I'm sort of terrified that one day I'll be forced to use something else. I tried many of the adjustable modern split keyboards that come in two halves (and are missing 10-key) but absolutely despise having half of my keyboard move around. The trend of keyboards cut in half doesn't make any sense to me. I never look at the thing and I expect every key to be exactly where I left it.

namrog84 3y ago
I've considered looking into getting like a custom order of 100 (or maybe 1000) units keyboards made similar-ish to the 4000. And trying to sell them. I think there is enough of us. I just have my fingers crossed that microsoft eventually makes a 'surface' brand version similiar enough to the 4000. or I find a way to properly replicate/replace the 4000s in some custom way.

w10-1 3y ago

Try the Kinesis Advantage II or 360 (with low-force keys): https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-lfq/ The curved key well means the wrist can avoid moving and hence avoid carpal tunnel syndrome. Moving the high-traffic enter and modifier keys to the thumb helps a lot, too. It has an embedded number pad, so you just toggle "keypad" and use the same keys.