3 ms·

Do you not know how to touch type without looking at the keyboard at all or have you just not learned where the numbers are? Shouldn't you take the time to lear

by pr0zac 3y ago

Do you not know how to touch type without looking at the keyboard at all or have you just not learned where the numbers are? Shouldn't you take the time to learn to type correctly instead of relying on moving your entire hand just to type a number? I truly do not mean to be insulting or anything, but I read comments like this a lot and they really confuse me. I don't need a numpad because I know how to touch type and don't have trouble putting in numbers with the number row without looking, I never used the numpad even when I had a keyboard that had one. For why I got a board without it, ergonomics. My mouse is where the numpad would've been. Having a shorter keyboard reduces the distance between my hands at the points where I need to use a mouse to about shoulder width, keeping my arms aligned with my shoulders and greatly reduces shoulder impinging issues I was having.

MetaWhirledPeas 3y ago
One-handed number entry is nice. It makes entering codes and PIN numbers easier. And of course Excel.
Clamchop 3y ago
Effective tenkey entry _is_ a touch typing skill and it's much faster for number entry than the number row.
z500 3y ago
Maybe it's because I learned to type in chat rooms and never bothered with the home row thing, but I guess I just don't type enough numbers to have muscle memory for the number row. But the numpad is stupid easy to develop muscle memory for.
kedean 3y ago
For me personally, the number row is far enough away from the home row that my fingers become inaccurate. It's not unlikely that when I reach for 7 I'll hit 6 instead. That's easy enough to correct in normal operation, less so for entering lots of numbers. Another issue is when doing data entry or 2fa codes, one hand tends to be busy holding something. The number row is basically unusable one-handed as far as I'm concerned. And for me, mouse distance from the keyboard has never been an issue, because I use them in different scenarios. It's not often that I'm dual wielding them to the point shoulder angles are a concern. If I'm spending hours coding, the amount of mouse usage is going to be minimal.
- Modified3019 3y ago
  Same here, I find that once I get about 4 keys away from where I index from, my accuracy drops like a rock
- pr0zac 3y ago
  Thinking about it after reading the responses, it makes sense a keypad is faster simply from reduced finger travel. Just for me personally, never so much faster having one would outweigh what I gain removing it. Also possible I never needed to enter numbers often enough prior to learning to touch type with the num row to incentivize finding a more efficient method and once I was regularly typing a lot of numbers my num row method was sufficient. Also while I don’t remember the exact timeline, because of my dad’s employer, Thinkpads were one of the main types of computers I used as a kid meaning I spent a lot of time growing up using built in laptop keyboards without numpads. It’s interesting how random quirks during childhood can result in very different ways of looking at a certain topic later in life. I definitely did a bad job explaining the kb + mouse thing. Writing code I rarely touch the mouse and if I do its for UI navigation that doesn’t support key strokes or is faster by mouse (usually stuff in a browser) so I’m mostly not using the keyboard at the same time (one exception being ctrl/cmd clicking links). I actually keep a trackpad to the left of my keyboard (I’m left handed) which I generally use to mouse during work with minimal arm movement. The situation where I was getting shoulder issues was playing video games. Getting a compact keyboard let me move my normal hand position inward to be better aligned while playing without the risk my mouse hits the side of the keyboard. I’ve worked from home for almost a decade using the same desk/monitor/keyboard/mouse setup for work and play and since I never used the keypad anyway it was no big deal to just switch both contexts even if doing so was initially only related to gaming.
  - kedean 3y ago
    Gaming would definitely be a case where I can see the placement mattering a lot more.
philote 3y ago
I'm with you on this, but wasn't until a few years ago. I used to prefer number pad and, though I'm pretty good a typing, didn't really learn to use the number row effectively. Now I see no reason to use a number pad unless I'm just doing a ton of numerical entry because I prefer leaving my hands in one place. It's actually annoying me right now that I have to use my mouse to submit this comment :)
- MetaWhirledPeas 3y ago
  This one of the main reasons I switched to an "ortho" keyboard. I use a left-hand modifier key to change uio jkl m,. into a number pad, meaning I can keep my hands near the home position and still crank out numbers just like I do with the number pad. I also kept the actual number pad around too, so I don't have to hit any modifier if I need one-handed number entry.
tempaccount1234 3y ago
Situations where I have to type in numbers are usually those where I need one hand to touch paper or a device, so that’s why typing them on a regular keyboard is hard. Also those keyboards without a number block seem to have bad positions for cursor and other special keys.
trey-jones 3y ago
This seems like some weird flex about being able to type numbers as effectively on the number row as on a number pad (not sure I believe that). I would rather flex that I never have to move my hand to the mouse...
- pr0zac 3y ago
  I get why my comment could come off that way but I truly was not trying to show off or talk down. I theoretically know each person and what works for them differs but it can be hard to comprehend someone else’s preferences when they are opposite of your own (which usually feel perfect). I was being a bit ignorant but was ok looking dumb in hopes of getting a better understanding of that other perspective. Mainly expressed my own as context for where I was coming from. Like yes, I think my opinion is objectively correct (which leaked in some), but I apologized in advance cause I recognize my doing so is irrational. To maybe balance out my coming off as superior, until moving to a country with chip and pin where it was regularly necessary, I could not touch type on a keypad. I would screw up embarrassingly often when forced to use one. Even once lost a card to an ATM after typing my pin wrong too many times. I rarely used one and thus lacked the muscle memory while typing numbers with the row is engrained from doing it so often for so long. I will not however have my good name besmirched by the implication I use a mouse while writing code! I’m an old curmudgeon who’s completely incapable of moving off of vim, I would never soil myself in such a manner. The mouse is used if I’m on MacOS where the UI lacks good keyboard navigation as well as the main situation I was having ergonomic issues during, playing video games.
  - trey-jones 3y ago
    You have my empathy. Observing myself today I'm using the number row mainly, but switch to the pad for longer strings of digits. You're right, we each do what works for us. Sincerely, A curmudgeonly old emacs user

by pr0zac 3y ago

MetaWhirledPeas 3y ago

One-handed number entry is nice. It makes entering codes and PIN numbers easier. And of course Excel.

Clamchop 3y ago

Effective tenkey entry _is_ a touch typing skill and it's much faster for number entry than the number row.

z500 3y ago

Maybe it's because I learned to type in chat rooms and never bothered with the home row thing, but I guess I just don't type enough numbers to have muscle memory for the number row. But the numpad is stupid easy to develop muscle memory for.

kedean 3y ago

For me personally, the number row is far enough away from the home row that my fingers become inaccurate. It's not unlikely that when I reach for 7 I'll hit 6 instead. That's easy enough to correct in normal operation, less so for entering lots of numbers. Another issue is when doing data entry or 2fa codes, one hand tends to be busy holding something. The number row is basically unusable one-handed as far as I'm concerned. And for me, mouse distance from the keyboard has never been an issue, because I use them in different scenarios. It's not often that I'm dual wielding them to the point shoulder angles are a concern. If I'm spending hours coding, the amount of mouse usage is going to be minimal.

Modified3019 3y ago
Same here, I find that once I get about 4 keys away from where I index from, my accuracy drops like a rock
pr0zac 3y ago
Thinking about it after reading the responses, it makes sense a keypad is faster simply from reduced finger travel. Just for me personally, never so much faster having one would outweigh what I gain removing it. Also possible I never needed to enter numbers often enough prior to learning to touch type with the num row to incentivize finding a more efficient method and once I was regularly typing a lot of numbers my num row method was sufficient. Also while I don’t remember the exact timeline, because of my dad’s employer, Thinkpads were one of the main types of computers I used as a kid meaning I spent a lot of time growing up using built in laptop keyboards without numpads. It’s interesting how random quirks during childhood can result in very different ways of looking at a certain topic later in life. I definitely did a bad job explaining the kb + mouse thing. Writing code I rarely touch the mouse and if I do its for UI navigation that doesn’t support key strokes or is faster by mouse (usually stuff in a browser) so I’m mostly not using the keyboard at the same time (one exception being ctrl/cmd clicking links). I actually keep a trackpad to the left of my keyboard (I’m left handed) which I generally use to mouse during work with minimal arm movement. The situation where I was getting shoulder issues was playing video games. Getting a compact keyboard let me move my normal hand position inward to be better aligned while playing without the risk my mouse hits the side of the keyboard. I’ve worked from home for almost a decade using the same desk/monitor/keyboard/mouse setup for work and play and since I never used the keypad anyway it was no big deal to just switch both contexts even if doing so was initially only related to gaming.
- kedean 3y ago
  Gaming would definitely be a case where I can see the placement mattering a lot more.

philote 3y ago

I'm with you on this, but wasn't until a few years ago. I used to prefer number pad and, though I'm pretty good a typing, didn't really learn to use the number row effectively. Now I see no reason to use a number pad unless I'm just doing a ton of numerical entry because I prefer leaving my hands in one place. It's actually annoying me right now that I have to use my mouse to submit this comment :)

MetaWhirledPeas 3y ago
This one of the main reasons I switched to an "ortho" keyboard. I use a left-hand modifier key to change uio jkl m,. into a number pad, meaning I can keep my hands near the home position and still crank out numbers just like I do with the number pad. I also kept the actual number pad around too, so I don't have to hit any modifier if I need one-handed number entry.

tempaccount1234 3y ago

Situations where I have to type in numbers are usually those where I need one hand to touch paper or a device, so that’s why typing them on a regular keyboard is hard. Also those keyboards without a number block seem to have bad positions for cursor and other special keys.

trey-jones 3y ago

This seems like some weird flex about being able to type numbers as effectively on the number row as on a number pad (not sure I believe that). I would rather flex that I never have to move my hand to the mouse...

pr0zac 3y ago
I get why my comment could come off that way but I truly was not trying to show off or talk down. I theoretically know each person and what works for them differs but it can be hard to comprehend someone else’s preferences when they are opposite of your own (which usually feel perfect). I was being a bit ignorant but was ok looking dumb in hopes of getting a better understanding of that other perspective. Mainly expressed my own as context for where I was coming from. Like yes, I think my opinion is objectively correct (which leaked in some), but I apologized in advance cause I recognize my doing so is irrational. To maybe balance out my coming off as superior, until moving to a country with chip and pin where it was regularly necessary, I could not touch type on a keypad. I would screw up embarrassingly often when forced to use one. Even once lost a card to an ATM after typing my pin wrong too many times. I rarely used one and thus lacked the muscle memory while typing numbers with the row is engrained from doing it so often for so long. I will not however have my good name besmirched by the implication I use a mouse while writing code! I’m an old curmudgeon who’s completely incapable of moving off of vim, I would never soil myself in such a manner. The mouse is used if I’m on MacOS where the UI lacks good keyboard navigation as well as the main situation I was having ergonomic issues during, playing video games.
- trey-jones 3y ago
  You have my empathy. Observing myself today I'm using the number row mainly, but switch to the pad for longer strings of digits. You're right, we each do what works for us. Sincerely, A curmudgeonly old emacs user