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I’m not discounting the cultural part because it’s a big factor, but you’re also missing that the US has more stringent safety standards that significantly driv

by bumby 3y ago

I’m not discounting the cultural part because it’s a big factor, but you’re also missing that the US has more stringent safety standards that significantly drive up weight. There’s more reasons that those little Opals and Citroëns aren’t sold in the US beyond cultural norms.

littlestymaar 3y ago
> but you’re also missing that the US has more stringent safety standards that significantly drive up weight. Source for that? From this 2015 study[1], it doesn't seems to be the case at all in practice. (And maybe it the safety regulation has tightened up in the US since 2015, but the car size difference had already existed for at least the past 2 decades at this point). In any case, given the car fatality rate in the US compared to the EU[2], these regulation seem pretty ineffective (no amount of car safety can compensate for the very low driving skill in the US, caused by very lenient driving license requirements compared to European ones). Also, I don't know how US safety rules apply but that would be pretty stupid if cars capped to 50km/h were subject to the same requirements as highway-ready cars. [1]: https://spectrum.ieee.org/us-european-cars-show-safety-differences-in-crashes https://spectrum.ieee.org/us-european-cars-show-safety-diffe... [2]: https://data.oecd.org/transport/road-accidents.htm https://data.oecd.org/transport/road-accidents.htm
- bumby 3y ago
  >Source for that? I used to work in automotive assembly as a robotics engineer. Besides being well-known in the automotive industry, it doesn't take a lot of internet sleuthing to find. "In general, there are two reasons why late-model cars are much heavier than their predecessors: safety and convenience."[1] "The U.S. has a bunch of extra safety standards that the Europeans don't. For instance, in America, car makers have to design airbags to protect people who are not wearing their seatbelt. In Europe, they just assume that everyone's buckled up."[2] I think you're conflating standards and the result of those standards with your links. You can levy a bunch of requirements that drive up weight and also don't have a meaningful impact on safety. We might even agree that they requirements aren't particularly effective, but that doesn't mean the manufacturers can skirt them. Whether or not the standards work, the result is the same: heavier vehicles. >I don't know how US safety rules apply but that would be pretty stupid if cars capped to 50km/h were subject to the same requirements as highway-ready cars. The market for those vehicles in the U.S. is extremely niche, generally relegated to ATVs. So much of the U.S. is connected by highways that there's very few people who a) want/need to own a car and b) also have no need to travel on the highways. People who only want a small urban commuter will often just get a scooter or motorcycle. [1]https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/why-are-modern-cars-so-heavy#:~:text=In%20general%2C%20there%20are%20two,their%20predecessors%3A%20safety%20and%20convenience.&text=By%20law%2C%20modern%20vehicles%20are,%2Dmonitoring%20systems%2C%20etc https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/why-are-modern-....) [2]https://www.npr.org/2015/10/16/449090584/why-arent-auto-safety-standards-universal https://www.npr.org/2015/10/16/449090584/why-arent-auto-safe...
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    > "The U.S. has a bunch of extra safety standards that the Europeans don't. For instance, in America, car makers have to design airbags to protect people who are not wearing their seatbelt. In Europe, they just assume that everyone's buckled up."[2] Even if it's not mandatory, basically all cars have airbags in Europe nowadays, including tiny cars. > [1]https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/why-are-modern- https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/why-are-modern-....) Come on: “By law, modern vehicles are required to be fitted with a variety of safety-oriented technology (anti-lock brakes, stability control and tire-pressure-monitoring systems, etc.) and equipment (air bags,laminated glass, door intrusion beams, etc.)” not only these things are also mandatory in Europe, all the given examples aren't even heavy to begin with! > The market for those vehicles in the U.S. is extremely niche, generally relegated to ATVs. So much of the U.S. is connected by highways that there's very few people who a) want/need to own a car and b) also have no need to travel on the highways. People who only want a small urban commuter will often just get a scooter or motorcycle. Yet American only commute 20 miles per day on average (at an average 30mph). The fact that highways in cities are “technically highways” is only a cultural (and political) decision: the same kinds of roads in Europe are in fact not highways and speed is often limited to 70km/h for instance in France. Anyway there are highway-ready cars (with airbags, ABS and all) that weight less than 900kg in Europe (Renault Twingo, Fiat 500, etc.).
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - bumby 3y ago
      No offense, but I get the impression you’re speaking from a place of ignorance which makes it easy to latch onto pieces that confirm a preconceived bias. Even if the cars all have airbags, it doesn’t mean they can pass US crash tests. That means they can’t nearly even be offered in the US. For example, EU frontal crash tests use a deformable barrier while the US does not. Relating to the study received for your safety assessment, it says the distribution of differences overlaps with zero. That’s a red flag that you can’t make a claim that they are any didn’t different. Your claim about US commits is incorrect and less than half of the actual value in both distance and speed. Avg. speed is also not an appropriate metric. I could go on, but there’s a lot to unpack. The latter point is that I’m not convinced you actually understand the differences between US or EU car manufacturing or parts of US culture that drive some of those decisions. There’s certainly an overrepresentation of SUV and trucks as commuter vehicles but there’s also a huge portion of the population, especially in the vast rural population, who have legitimate and pragmatic reasons to these vehicles. (And that’s coming from someone who drives a small hatchback)

by bumby 3y ago

littlestymaar 3y ago

> but you’re also missing that the US has more stringent safety standards that significantly drive up weight. Source for that? From this 2015 study[1], it doesn't seems to be the case at all in practice. (And maybe it the safety regulation has tightened up in the US since 2015, but the car size difference had already existed for at least the past 2 decades at this point). In any case, given the car fatality rate in the US compared to the EU[2], these regulation seem pretty ineffective (no amount of car safety can compensate for the very low driving skill in the US, caused by very lenient driving license requirements compared to European ones). Also, I don't know how US safety rules apply but that would be pretty stupid if cars capped to 50km/h were subject to the same requirements as highway-ready cars. [1]: https://spectrum.ieee.org/us-european-cars-show-safety-differences-in-crashes https://spectrum.ieee.org/us-european-cars-show-safety-diffe... [2]: https://data.oecd.org/transport/road-accidents.htm https://data.oecd.org/transport/road-accidents.htm

bumby 3y ago
>Source for that? I used to work in automotive assembly as a robotics engineer. Besides being well-known in the automotive industry, it doesn't take a lot of internet sleuthing to find. "In general, there are two reasons why late-model cars are much heavier than their predecessors: safety and convenience."[1] "The U.S. has a bunch of extra safety standards that the Europeans don't. For instance, in America, car makers have to design airbags to protect people who are not wearing their seatbelt. In Europe, they just assume that everyone's buckled up."[2] I think you're conflating standards and the result of those standards with your links. You can levy a bunch of requirements that drive up weight and also don't have a meaningful impact on safety. We might even agree that they requirements aren't particularly effective, but that doesn't mean the manufacturers can skirt them. Whether or not the standards work, the result is the same: heavier vehicles. >I don't know how US safety rules apply but that would be pretty stupid if cars capped to 50km/h were subject to the same requirements as highway-ready cars. The market for those vehicles in the U.S. is extremely niche, generally relegated to ATVs. So much of the U.S. is connected by highways that there's very few people who a) want/need to own a car and b) also have no need to travel on the highways. People who only want a small urban commuter will often just get a scooter or motorcycle. [1]https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/why-are-modern-cars-so-heavy#:~:text=In%20general%2C%20there%20are%20two,their%20predecessors%3A%20safety%20and%20convenience.&text=By%20law%2C%20modern%20vehicles%20are,%2Dmonitoring%20systems%2C%20etc https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/why-are-modern-....) [2]https://www.npr.org/2015/10/16/449090584/why-arent-auto-safety-standards-universal https://www.npr.org/2015/10/16/449090584/why-arent-auto-safe...
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  > "The U.S. has a bunch of extra safety standards that the Europeans don't. For instance, in America, car makers have to design airbags to protect people who are not wearing their seatbelt. In Europe, they just assume that everyone's buckled up."[2] Even if it's not mandatory, basically all cars have airbags in Europe nowadays, including tiny cars. > [1]https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/why-are-modern- https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/why-are-modern-....) Come on: “By law, modern vehicles are required to be fitted with a variety of safety-oriented technology (anti-lock brakes, stability control and tire-pressure-monitoring systems, etc.) and equipment (air bags,laminated glass, door intrusion beams, etc.)” not only these things are also mandatory in Europe, all the given examples aren't even heavy to begin with! > The market for those vehicles in the U.S. is extremely niche, generally relegated to ATVs. So much of the U.S. is connected by highways that there's very few people who a) want/need to own a car and b) also have no need to travel on the highways. People who only want a small urban commuter will often just get a scooter or motorcycle. Yet American only commute 20 miles per day on average (at an average 30mph). The fact that highways in cities are “technically highways” is only a cultural (and political) decision: the same kinds of roads in Europe are in fact not highways and speed is often limited to 70km/h for instance in France. Anyway there are highway-ready cars (with airbags, ABS and all) that weight less than 900kg in Europe (Renault Twingo, Fiat 500, etc.).
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - bumby 3y ago
    No offense, but I get the impression you’re speaking from a place of ignorance which makes it easy to latch onto pieces that confirm a preconceived bias. Even if the cars all have airbags, it doesn’t mean they can pass US crash tests. That means they can’t nearly even be offered in the US. For example, EU frontal crash tests use a deformable barrier while the US does not. Relating to the study received for your safety assessment, it says the distribution of differences overlaps with zero. That’s a red flag that you can’t make a claim that they are any didn’t different. Your claim about US commits is incorrect and less than half of the actual value in both distance and speed. Avg. speed is also not an appropriate metric. I could go on, but there’s a lot to unpack. The latter point is that I’m not convinced you actually understand the differences between US or EU car manufacturing or parts of US culture that drive some of those decisions. There’s certainly an overrepresentation of SUV and trucks as commuter vehicles but there’s also a huge portion of the population, especially in the vast rural population, who have legitimate and pragmatic reasons to these vehicles. (And that’s coming from someone who drives a small hatchback)