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I really don't understand the numpad-less trend of fashionable keyboards. Doing any kind of number entry beyond one or two digits is very annoying without one.
by frameset 3y ago
I really don't understand the numpad-less trend of fashionable keyboards. Doing any kind of number entry beyond one or two digits is very annoying without one.
They also don't take up that much space really.
If your keyboard is a portable one you pack with you on trips, I get it. If it lives on a desk, why not splash out the small amount extra to make number entry much easier.
- sime2009 3y ago* reduces the distance from keyboard home row to mouse * less desk real estate needed * many of us aren't doing much number entry at all
- gorjusborg 3y agoAlso, the number pad is pretty useless to me. I am not a cashier or accountant. The top row is fine fine for programming.
- bityard 3y agoPeople who work at all with ipv4 networks (devops, sre, sysadmin, netadmin) find themselves entering IP addresses on most regular days.
- sleepybrett 3y agoI just bought a little mechanical keypad kit off alliexpress, nice alu case, bluetooth... I drag it down when I need it, which is mostly for when I'm doing CAD.
- doubled112 3y agoI am a sysadmin who thought I wanted a numpad, but it turns out I want the desk space and ability to toss the keyboard to the side more.
- jrockway 3y agoThe numberpad needs abcdef and : to be IPv6 ready.
- Symbiote 3y agoIf the IP addresses usually have the same prefix (or two-three prefixes) you could program that prefix to a simple key combination on many mechanical keyboards. Even with weird combinations, like holding '1' and pressing '9' to autotype '192.168.0.'.
- jethro_tell 3y agoOr they don't, I've worked on fleets from 10-1,000,000 hosts just use auto configured DNS like a normal person. If you're using IPs there something wrong with your process.
- tornadofart 3y ago... or you're working in an environment where it's industry norm that production-crucial devices (embedded devices, PLCs etc) have fixed IPs. In steel plant automation for example. What is "normal" may vary dramatically across industries.
- bityard 3y agoThanks very little for the unwarranted negativity. I'm not sure how you got to the conclusion that "my process" is somehow ignorant of the existence of DHCP and DNS. It most certainly is not.
- infecto 3y agoDepends on what you are doing of course. Cannot speak to the fashion side of it but my original motivator to move to a keypad less was to reduce the distance of the mouse to my typing space. I do not do any type of data entry and rarely type numbers with enough frequency to require it.
- darkteflon 3y agoSame for me. The shorter distance seems to put substantially less strain on my wrists and shoulder. Can’t imagine sitting in front of a tenkey for hours at a time now.
- pcurve 3y agoWhile I do miss the number pads it was leading me to bad posture and messing up my back. I like how some keyboards have detached numberpad but they are rare.
- _cenw 3y agoSouthpaw keyboards (with lefthand numpads) also exist, but they're even more rare.
- darkteflon 3y agoYeah I put a wireless numpad to the left of the keyboard when I need it - mainly just for Blender and Excel.
- larperdoodle 3y agoI type in a 2FA code a few times a day and that's enough to justify it for me. Really hate typing in numbers without one
- rtkwe 3y agoSome of the fancier ones will have layers where you can turn part of they keyboard directly into a number pad if you're mostly typing just numbers. Best of both worlds.
- Zambyte 3y agoOr the best of both worlds: put your numpad on another layer at the home row. Press a modifier key with one hand, and enter numbers with the other.
- srndsnd 3y agoI do this on my Planck, and have aligned the numbers to have both a row of digits, and intersecting 789, have the layout of a conventional number pad on the rows below. I feel like I have more flexibility and control on a keyboard with fewer keys than I have ever used before this!
- denkmoon 3y agoGood thing I rarely enter more than a few digits :) Having a "tenkeyless" means my mouse position is aligned with my shoulder, with a full width keyboard my arm would be rotated constantly, leading to pain.
- elyobo 3y agoLess ergonomic for people that don't do a lot of number entry - I'm a dev, not an accountant, I never used the number entry when I had it. The MS Sculpt (in the article) comes with a number pad as well, I've had it for years and left the number pad in the drawer.
- lloeki 3y agoDistance to mouse means I either have to stretch my arm in long-term unhealthy positions leading to shoulder, neck, and upper back pain, or offset the keyboard and have the non-keypad not front and center. Typing numbers on a single row is not an issue for me, so numpad brings me little benefits and significant drawbacks.
- baz00 3y agoI don't have one and it's annoying and not annoying. Annoying because, yes entering numbers is a problem. Not annoying because the mouse is closer.
- wccrawford 3y agoI learned the 10-key before I learned touch-typing, so I tend to use it a lot. It's just so convenient.
- thom 3y agoThe last time I used a numberpad was to play Civilisation in the 90s, so I don't really miss it. I hate moving my hands too far from the home row, and it's now a few inches less travel to my mouse when I need it so that's a positive. If I ever had to manually enter a bunch of numbers in a spreadsheet or something I'd either automate it or re-evaluate my life choices.
- wing-_-nuts 3y ago>The last time I used a numberpad was to play Civilisation in the 90s Ay! another civ 2 fan! I agree it's painful to play that game without a numpad. I also used it with some tactical shooters to radio compass directions to my team. 'Enemy spotted south south east!' It came in handy.
- alias_neo 3y agoIt's an easy one for me; I'm a lefty, the majority of numpads are utterly useless to me because I am so much slower entering numbers on it with my right hand, than just using the number row, or a separate numpad, or a board with a left-numpad.
- superhuzza 3y agoI'm a designer and primarily use my mouse + keyboard shortcuts. Keyboards with numpads push my mouse position further out right, which is actually quite awkward on the shoulder (it has to be twisted outwards). With a tenkeyless board, my shoulders and forearms are straight. I would consider a separate numpad so it can be moved around if needed, but that need never really comes up for me.
- SpikyBlackHard 3y agoIt sounds bad but if you're using the mouse a lot you should try splitting the board and placing the mouse between the halves. For shoulders it's the best typing and mousing position I can imagine. Although to be honest /didn't/ imagine it, someone whom I admire recommended it and even so it only took on the second attempt. And... it hasn't made me need a numpty yet.
- morjom 3y agoKeyboards with numpads on the opposite side exist. Sometimes called a left handed keyboard or in the mechanical keyboard world, "southpaw".
- wiredfool 3y agoMice can go on the left.
- wellthisisgreat 3y agoIt’s hard to work cross-handed though
- Jackevansevo 3y agoI've just habitually never learnt to do number entry with a numpad, I kinda envy those people that can. Also any time my hands leave the home row it feels kinda wrong.
- EtienneK 3y agoI have a TKL for work and and also use it to game. Having more space for mouse movement is great when playing games. I never used a numpad anyway, so I don't miss it at all.
- littlelady 3y ago1. I have narrow shoulders, switching to a smaller keyboard has dramatically decreased the amount of shoulder and elbow pain I had. 2. I almost never do number entry, but if I do I have a dedicated number pad.
- VBprogrammer 3y agoI particularly hate number pads on laptop keyboards because they put the touch pad right where my wrist occasionally touches as I type. I've used the old Mac 104 key aluminium wired keyboard for about 10 years now. I originally used it with Linux and now with MacOS at work and my home Windows PC. I've occasionally had minor difficulties with mapping but nothing insurmountable.
- bigbison19 3y agoThe real pro move is using a keyboard with the numpad on the left side (southpaw). This decreases distance from normal typing hand position to the mouse while also keeping a numpad and giving you the ability to control the numpad w/ the left hand while mousing around w/ the righthand for data entry in apps like excel.
- mjrpes 3y agoAs a southpaw who uses the mouse on the left side I've never realized the advantage I've had all these years with this setup. I use numpad + mouse all the time and it does save a lot of time. Almost makes up for having to change the default WASD key bindings in every game I've played.
- default-kramer 3y agoEarly in my career, I just moved the mouse to my left hand and kept everything else the same. It was super easy to get used to and easy to replicate whenever I have to use some shared workstation.
- koromak 3y agoFor the real luxury stuff, there aren't great options for a 95%+ layout. And they're typically more expensive without being as "high quality". The luxury keyboard world is very focused on small form factor. The only time I miss it is gaming. Flight/Space sims, Factorio, things like that really benefit from a numpad. Otherwise, I'm not typing numbers enough to care.
- 010101010101 3y agoI have a full size Code keyboard at home and a tenkeyless one for work. I went with the TKL because it has a much smaller desk footprint and I end up with a bunch of other stuff taking up space on my desk at work. I can also fit the keyboard in my laptop bag if I need to (admittedly, this has mattered almost never). At home I end up doing enough number entry in personal finance spreadsheets and the like that I feel like I’d miss the numpad, but it’s rarely been an issue for me at work.
- schwartzworld 3y agoMany keyboards allow you to map additional layers, so if you want a numpad, it's pretty trivial to put one in the place your hand already is, instead of moving your hand over.
- huimang 3y agoI don't enter numbers frequently enough that I need one, and I prefer the closer mouse distance of a smaller keyboard. If the board has QMK/remappable firmware, then they can add a virtual layer that does have a numpad. That's what I did for my Let's Split keyboard.
- pr0zac 3y agoDo you not know how to touch type without looking at the keyboard at all or have you just not learned where the numbers are? Shouldn't you take the time to learn to type correctly instead of relying on moving your entire hand just to type a number? I truly do not mean to be insulting or anything, but I read comments like this a lot and they really confuse me. I don't need a numpad because I know how to touch type and don't have trouble putting in numbers with the number row without looking, I never used the numpad even when I had a keyboard that had one. For why I got a board without it, ergonomics. My mouse is where the numpad would've been. Having a shorter keyboard reduces the distance between my hands at the points where I need to use a mouse to about shoulder width, keeping my arms aligned with my shoulders and greatly reduces shoulder impinging issues I was having.
- MetaWhirledPeas 3y agoOne-handed number entry is nice. It makes entering codes and PIN numbers easier. And of course Excel.
- Clamchop 3y agoEffective tenkey entry _is_ a touch typing skill and it's much faster for number entry than the number row.
- z500 3y agoMaybe it's because I learned to type in chat rooms and never bothered with the home row thing, but I guess I just don't type enough numbers to have muscle memory for the number row. But the numpad is stupid easy to develop muscle memory for.
- kedean 3y agoFor me personally, the number row is far enough away from the home row that my fingers become inaccurate. It's not unlikely that when I reach for 7 I'll hit 6 instead. That's easy enough to correct in normal operation, less so for entering lots of numbers. Another issue is when doing data entry or 2fa codes, one hand tends to be busy holding something. The number row is basically unusable one-handed as far as I'm concerned. And for me, mouse distance from the keyboard has never been an issue, because I use them in different scenarios. It's not often that I'm dual wielding them to the point shoulder angles are a concern. If I'm spending hours coding, the amount of mouse usage is going to be minimal.
- jseliger 3y agoI don't know about his keyboards, but many now have meta switches to turn the ~jkl; block area into a num pad. Then you don't have to move your right hand to input numbers. Left hand holds the meta key; right hand inputs numbers. On my Kinesis Advantage 3, I think the number 1 or 2 meta key on the left side of the board is set up this way.
- MayeulC 3y agoOrtholinear or orthocolumnar layouts are much easier to touchtype with IME, this is also the layout of a numpad (straight rows, not a "typewriter" layout with staggered rows). I'm not sure why those are not popular, even among "keyboard enthusiasts". Heck, even among gamers: I can play from my home row comfortably, and have plenty of keys on both sides of my hand. Anyway, I'm currently using an Ergodox EZ and it's very simple: I have a numpad "layer" activated with a key. The keyboard already has the right layout, so activating this layer with the left hand lets me quickly enter a number with my right hand (from the home row).
- wussboy 3y agoAs a committed number pad user for years, the solution you've used (and that I have used) has done away with my need for a discreet number pad altogether. I have one layer that turns the right side into a number pad, and another layer that turns it into a VIM cursor control pad. After all these years of typing on an Ergodox in this way and dreaming of a separate number pad, it turns out I had what I wanted all along and can't leave it now.
- rednerrus 3y agoSwap to using your mouse with your left hand and see how much better it is. Moving the mouse closer to where you type helps tremendously.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- peepee1982 3y agoThey do take up a lot of space between the right hand and the mouse. I sometimes try to go back to full size keyboard but I just can't take it for more than a few hours. It's just too uncomfortable. I'd love to have a keyboard with the numpad on the left side. If I were a lefty with regards to mousing I'd use a full size keyboard and be happy.
- jrockway 3y agoThe reason people ditch number pads is so that their mouse can be closer to them. Feel what your upper arm is doing as you rotate to get to a mouse that's next to a number pad, that is painful for a lot of people. (If you use your mouse with your left hand, then this doesn't matter.) Personally, I just have a layer that I activate with my right thumb to turn the m,.jkluio keys into 123456789, so it's like having a number pad, but one that doesn't take up any space.
- bigstrat2003 3y agoI cannot stand any keyboard less than a 100% layout. I have 30 years of muscle memory built up, and I'm not about to relearn it. I don't really have any beef with those who want a smaller keyboard (though I don't really understand it - no way is your desk so small that saving a few inches actually makes a difference). But it is a real bummer that makers of high-end keyboards only cater to that crowd, and don't make nice keyboards that are full size. I would love to get a GMMK Pro, for example - if only it was in the form factor I want.
- tqwhite 3y agoIncorrect! I have worked on a high quality, wooden card table for fifteen years as a professional programmer. I am right-handed and there is no way there is room for a mouse or (as I actually use) a trackpad with a number pad on the keyboard. I've tried a couple of numberless keyboards and those crowd my mouse area. I am firmly and permanently settled on the Apple keyboard. It is tiny, silent and perfectly reliable. (In a bizarre side note, I left one out in the rain the other day, a downpour. It still worked.)
- bigstrat2003 3y agoFair enough, I phrased my statement too strongly. Let me restate: I have never ever in my entire life seen a desk which was so small that shaving a few inches off a keyboard would actually be significant. And mind you, that includes shitty call center desks which are built to be just wide enough to cram a computer station in. While it is possible they exist, the fact that I've never encountered even one causes me to doubt that most people who say "my desk is too small" actually have a desk which is too small for a 100% keyboard.
- NateEag 3y agoFor some of us, the sideways reach / horizontal flexion for the mouse (thumb trackball, in my case) can cause wrist or arm pain. It's not about desk space, it's about ergonomics.
- NobodyNada 3y ago
- zigzag312 3y agoClassic keyboard is too wide. Holding a mouse next to it puts strain on your shoulder. I use separate keypad for number entry (not this one exactly, but you get the idea): https://www.amazon.com/MOTOSPEED-Mechanical-Portable-Backlight-Extended/dp/B08516SBKL https://www.amazon.com/MOTOSPEED-Mechanical-Portable-Backlig...
- FrankoDelMar 3y agoAs someone that prefers the number pad, I've never seen this mentioned: the enter key is extremely accessible from my (right) mouse hand, it's on the bottom right of the keyboard -- I can't miss it. In a TKL, I would have to pass over the arrow keys on my way to the return carriage key.
- narag 3y agoI really don't understand the numpad-less trend of fashionable keyboards. OK, I've read all the answers so far, in the hope that somebody had told you before, but no! I don't use the numpad, so it's useless to me. But does it harm? In the case of these keyboards, not so much, except for the reason others have already explained of more distance for the mouse. I can live with it, but my next keyboard will be numpad-less for sure. If we talk about laptops, that's a different story. Numpads for those are terrible, for me anyway. They shift the center of the hands, that is between G and H, from the center of the laptop and thus the center of the screen, so your hands are in an unnatural position. If you center an external wide keyboard, you get the same effect. I don't, but I try to use the GH line... "try" because the push from the mouse always tend to move it to the left. So now you know, for some of us it's not a question of fashion, but usability :)
- Legion 3y agoI don't need a redundant set of numeric keys on the right side of the keyboard for the same reason I don't need a redundant set of vowels on the left side of the board. For an accountant or someone whose keyboard usage is exceedingly numbers-centric, then sure. But as a default option, it's a space eating waste.
- 1-more 3y agoMy solution: on all of the keyboards I've programmed (which are all ortholinear or vertical staggered ortholinear), I have a numpad layer. When I hold down F my right hand home row is vim style arrows. D and it's a number pad. S and it's a symbol pad. Common programming delimiters like <>{}() are not on a layer, instead they're hold/tap with my modifier keys on my base layer (Inspired by the space cadet keyboard).
- BeFlatXIII 3y agoI prefer a separate numpad for RSI reasons. Small keyboard with the mouse next to it and numpad either on the left or on the far side of the rodent.
- themagician 3y agoI prefer a separate numpad. Always have. I like it with the loud clicky switches because I can hear a double tap mistake. You can also then move the main keyboard over and use one hand on the arrows and really blaze through a spreadsheet. 10/10 would recommend a separate numpad. Also good for macros in games or Photoshop or whatever.
- jethro_tell 3y agoSome people don't do number entry of any scale that would make them want to take their hands off the home row. I'm one, I have small keyboards everywhere. My wife on the other hand has a custom keyboard with a num pad on each side so she can num pad with a mouse in her hand. People have different needs. And different workflows. Not sure why that's news to you.
- gwbas1c 3y agoI have wide shoulders and like to spread my arms out, so I personally prefer the number pad build into the keyboard. I even like reaching far out for my mouse. I can assume that people with narrow shoulders would prefer a narrow layout on their desk.
- falsenapkin 3y agoQuite the ratio here. Definitely agree with the masses that 1) almost no one does number entry 2) many touch typers are plenty fast enough on the number row 3) it does take up space really, especially in laptop or directly next to a mouse. I touch type 24 digit numbers at work from the num row, it's fine really.
- crazygringo 3y ago> If it lives on a desk, why not splash out the small amount extra to make number entry much easier. Because it's bad ergonomics, if you're right-handed. It puts the mouse too far to the right. And I've been using computers for decades but can't recall a single time I ever did numeric "data entry". That just feels like a relic of when office workers were entering amounts from stacks of printed invoices by hand.
- serial_dev 3y agoExactly. I try to use my keyboard whenever possible, but sometimes reaching to my mouse is just easier. Moving my hand 5 inches is already bad, but having to move it 10-15 inches every time I want to use the mouse is terrible. And all for what? For having to enter a phone number or credit card number once a month into some form? The tradeoff is not worth it for most people. As a programmer, I don't need a numpad very often, having long strings of numbers are not very common in my field. Sure, sometimes I need to write numbers, but they are one or two character long, and having them above the keys is better experience as I don't need to move my hand so far.
- Clamchop 3y agoThere are compact designs that I find reasonable, though I'm sure not everyone will agree, which is fine! I'm using a Leopold fc-980m right now. It and it's variants are my favorite layout that I've used so far. But I do use my tenkey pretty often and want it around.
- sleepybrett 3y agoI only use a numpad while doing CAD work. I just bought a separate keypad. Otherwise it's just making the distance from 'home' to your mouse further than it needs to be.
- monooso 3y agoThe Miryoku layout [1] has a dedicated number layer which turns the left half into a number pad. Practical (once you get used to it) and portable. [1] https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku
- slaymaker1907 3y agoHaving a narrower keyboard reduces travel time when switching from mouse to keyboard and back.
- tnecniv 3y agoFor me, I just straight up never use the number pad. I never integrated it into my workflow. It just takes up unnecessary space for me. What I hate are those tiny arrow keys on the Mac keyboard
- fomine3 3y agoLocation of pointing device is far more important than numpad. If numpad is needed, I want to put it on the left of keyboard.
- Cthulhu_ 3y agoI don't enter that much numbers tbh, so I don't need a num pad per se. The reason I got rid of it is because I switch between keyboard and mouse a lot, or use them at the same time; the extra distance was just uncomfortable for me.