4 ms·

> Their work needed this. The company needed this to work better, and they deserve the credit for doing the work. This is not open for discussion in my opinion.

> Their work needed this. The company needed this to work better, and they deserve the credit for doing the work. This is not open for discussion in my opinion. Why is it not open for discussion? I can’t just fill in a pothole or cut my neighbours grass and expect credit and/or compensation. OSS isn’t common property. You can’t just do whatever you want and expect to receive credit. Yeah, their work needed a fix and they got a fix. That’s already a better than average outcome.

bayindirh 3y ago
Free software is common property. This the rule 0. It's everyone's. This is why four freedoms exist, and The Kernel is GPLv2. i.e. Free Software. Compensation and credit are completely different things. Credit is not compensation. It's an answer to question "Who did this?". He didn't do whatever he want. He was experiencing a problem, he traced, researched it, debugged it, fixed it, and submitted a patch to The Kernel. If that was only something "whatever he wanted", the patch would be shot down. The bug is accepted/confirmed on The Kernel side, his patch is being reviewed and deemed "stylistically unacceptable", the reviewer/maintainer wrote his own version, and by pushing the fix w/o attributing him, he effectively claimed that he did all the work from discovery to patching, incl. everything in between. The maintainer didn't have to accept the patch per se. He could have just written "This bug is discovered, dissected and fixed by $THE_PERSON. Patch is implemented and committed by me. Thanks a lot, $THE_PERSON!". This is basic human decency. I have my name on many bug reports, either reporting them, or providing more information leading to solution of the bug. I have a couple of patches here and there, and I experienced something similar from another prominent project people interact with every day, but I said that "mneh, whatever". The author certainly didn't because the treatment he got is really bad, and good for him publicizing this, because these kind of people needs to be known. Well, there might be miscommunication and the story can be completely different, but starting the discussion from somewhere is healthy.
- shortcake27 3y ago
  > Free software is common property. This the rule 0. It's everyone's. This is why four freedoms exist, and The Kernel is GPLv2. i.e. Free Software. Just because something is free, it doesn’t make it common property. Being able to use the kernel and modify _your own copy_ is not the same as the kernel itself being common property. The four freedoms don’t grant us permission or rights to alter other people’s copies of the software, so those copies are not common property. > The maintainer didn't have to accept the patch per se. He could have just written "This bug is discovered, dissected and fixed by $THE_PERSON. Patch is implemented and committed by me. Thanks a lot, $THE_PERSON!". That’s basically what happened, yeah? The author got credit for reporting it.
  - bayindirh 3y ago
    > The four freedoms don’t grant us permission or rights to alter other people’s copies of the software, so those copies are not common property. Of course, but accepting a bug, giving feedback on a submitted patch to be included in the kernel is openly saying "We're willing to accept this, but you need to polish this and that", which the author did. In practice he got the permission to modify their copy. > That’s basically what happened, yeah? The author got credit for reporting it. No, definitely not. They got a "reported-by" tag, which means "the author told me that something is not working, so I did all the work to find why, did all the work to solve, did all the work to implement, did all the work to commit." In reality, the author found, debugged, solved and patched the problem. The maintainer didn't like the style, pushed his version, and claimed that all work is done by him, except hitting his proverbial foot to a proverbial stone while walking (i.e. discovering the bug).
    - shortcake27 3y ago
      > In practice he got the permission to modify their copy. I wouldn’t consider it common property if permission is required. It seems like our definitions of common property differ, but I’m not sure there’s any value in trying to align ourselves on this. > No, definitely not. They got a "reported-by" tag, which means "somebody told me that something is not working, so I did all the work to find why, did all the work to solve, did all the work to implement, did all the work to commit." Got it. Yeah I agree this is not the same. However, I still stand by my original stance which is that no one is owed anything, especially when they do something no one asked them to do.
      - bayindirh 3y ago
        > I’m not sure there’s any value in trying to align ourselves on this. Same here. > I still stand by my original stance which is that no one is owed anything, especially when they do something no one asked them to do. I understand your point, but nothing is mandatory in Free Software. However, this is not about internet points, but it's human decency with consequences. Strip the event from The Kernel and computer domain, this is plain rude, unjust and unethical. The author says this, and I concur. First, we need to do better as humans. This is the lesson.
- hnfong 3y ago
  > maintainer wrote his own version, and by pushing the fix w/o attributing him, he effectively claimed that he did all the work from discovery to patching, incl. everything in between. Woah this claim a bit too strong. There's a "reported-by" line in the final patch that ended in the kernel: https://lore.kernel.org/all/20220609133245.573565-1-mpe@ellerman.id.au/t/#u https://lore.kernel.org/all/20220609133245.573565-1-mpe@elle... Whether that's sufficient is another matter.
  - bayindirh 3y ago
    Well, no, it's not. Giving a mere "reported-by" tag to a person who comes with a patch is just too unjust. Isn't it? The patch may not deserve to be included in the tree as-is, which can be understandable, yet dismissing all the research is essentially saying "you're too young to be here. Leave this to grown men, ride your tricycle over there. Here's a candy. Good boy."
    - hnfong 3y ago
      I don't understand why the act of not taking a small patch should be interpreted in such a personally insulting way. It sounds like you are just trying pour oil on a fire. Would you prefer to live in a world where people are obliged to spend extra time dealing with easily-broken egos because all non-overtly-friendly acts can and will be interpreted as contempt? I personally rather assume people are well intentioned, and let them focus on fixing problems instead of catering to egos. Or maybe you like playing the ego game. That's fine, but I'm really honestly questioning my assumptions towards humanity in the discussion here. Do people really think I view them in contempt if I don't write a couple paragraphs of words to sooth their egos after I disagree with them?
      - bayindirh 3y ago
        Because it's not about not accepting the patch. I'm not there. It's about the style. About the oil: I'm not that kind of person. I'm just defending what I'm thinking right. Also, I know about oil burns. That's something I'd never wish on my enemy. One doesn't need to be overly, or overtly friendly, or to write long fluffy sentences to come across as kind. It's about the word choice yes, but not in the straightforward way we are wired to think. It's something more subtle. I write many e-mails every day, talking with people from many nations, at every level in many projects. Some of these mails are novellas, some of them are four word bursts. Yet regardless of the length of the mail, I can convey the tone I want, and people understand that. Sometimes I need to say no to people, and I say it directly. Sometimes I thank them sincerely. Rarely I write hard/heavy mails, which is something I hate to do (and I don't use the word lightly), but without any strong words, and they go through too. Being kind is not playing the ego game, and doesn't need extra time. What is wrong is thinking that you can throw words and/or people around just because you don't see their faces, don't like how they name the variables, or you think you can say anything because you're a nerd/geek/hacker/whatever and these features or adjectives give you license to push people around. Lastly, I think soft-skills are way more important in development communities, because your projects' life-span is measured with the health of the community supporting it. Gate-keeping, elitism, and similar acts slowly but surely damages a community. We should strive to be better humans first. Coding is easy. Communication is hard.

bayindirh 3y ago

Free software is common property. This the rule 0. It's everyone's. This is why four freedoms exist, and The Kernel is GPLv2. i.e. Free Software. Compensation and credit are completely different things. Credit is not compensation. It's an answer to question "Who did this?". He didn't do whatever he want. He was experiencing a problem, he traced, researched it, debugged it, fixed it, and submitted a patch to The Kernel. If that was only something "whatever he wanted", the patch would be shot down. The bug is accepted/confirmed on The Kernel side, his patch is being reviewed and deemed "stylistically unacceptable", the reviewer/maintainer wrote his own version, and by pushing the fix w/o attributing him, he effectively claimed that he did all the work from discovery to patching, incl. everything in between. The maintainer didn't have to accept the patch per se. He could have just written "This bug is discovered, dissected and fixed by $THE_PERSON. Patch is implemented and committed by me. Thanks a lot, $THE_PERSON!". This is basic human decency. I have my name on many bug reports, either reporting them, or providing more information leading to solution of the bug. I have a couple of patches here and there, and I experienced something similar from another prominent project people interact with every day, but I said that "mneh, whatever". The author certainly didn't because the treatment he got is really bad, and good for him publicizing this, because these kind of people needs to be known. Well, there might be miscommunication and the story can be completely different, but starting the discussion from somewhere is healthy.

shortcake27 3y ago
> Free software is common property. This the rule 0. It's everyone's. This is why four freedoms exist, and The Kernel is GPLv2. i.e. Free Software. Just because something is free, it doesn’t make it common property. Being able to use the kernel and modify _your own copy_ is not the same as the kernel itself being common property. The four freedoms don’t grant us permission or rights to alter other people’s copies of the software, so those copies are not common property. > The maintainer didn't have to accept the patch per se. He could have just written "This bug is discovered, dissected and fixed by $THE_PERSON. Patch is implemented and committed by me. Thanks a lot, $THE_PERSON!". That’s basically what happened, yeah? The author got credit for reporting it.
- bayindirh 3y ago
  > The four freedoms don’t grant us permission or rights to alter other people’s copies of the software, so those copies are not common property. Of course, but accepting a bug, giving feedback on a submitted patch to be included in the kernel is openly saying "We're willing to accept this, but you need to polish this and that", which the author did. In practice he got the permission to modify their copy. > That’s basically what happened, yeah? The author got credit for reporting it. No, definitely not. They got a "reported-by" tag, which means "the author told me that something is not working, so I did all the work to find why, did all the work to solve, did all the work to implement, did all the work to commit." In reality, the author found, debugged, solved and patched the problem. The maintainer didn't like the style, pushed his version, and claimed that all work is done by him, except hitting his proverbial foot to a proverbial stone while walking (i.e. discovering the bug).
  - shortcake27 3y ago
    > In practice he got the permission to modify their copy. I wouldn’t consider it common property if permission is required. It seems like our definitions of common property differ, but I’m not sure there’s any value in trying to align ourselves on this. > No, definitely not. They got a "reported-by" tag, which means "somebody told me that something is not working, so I did all the work to find why, did all the work to solve, did all the work to implement, did all the work to commit." Got it. Yeah I agree this is not the same. However, I still stand by my original stance which is that no one is owed anything, especially when they do something no one asked them to do.
    - bayindirh 3y ago
      > I’m not sure there’s any value in trying to align ourselves on this. Same here. > I still stand by my original stance which is that no one is owed anything, especially when they do something no one asked them to do. I understand your point, but nothing is mandatory in Free Software. However, this is not about internet points, but it's human decency with consequences. Strip the event from The Kernel and computer domain, this is plain rude, unjust and unethical. The author says this, and I concur. First, we need to do better as humans. This is the lesson.
hnfong 3y ago
> maintainer wrote his own version, and by pushing the fix w/o attributing him, he effectively claimed that he did all the work from discovery to patching, incl. everything in between. Woah this claim a bit too strong. There's a "reported-by" line in the final patch that ended in the kernel: https://lore.kernel.org/all/20220609133245.573565-1-mpe@ellerman.id.au/t/#u https://lore.kernel.org/all/20220609133245.573565-1-mpe@elle... Whether that's sufficient is another matter.
- bayindirh 3y ago
  Well, no, it's not. Giving a mere "reported-by" tag to a person who comes with a patch is just too unjust. Isn't it? The patch may not deserve to be included in the tree as-is, which can be understandable, yet dismissing all the research is essentially saying "you're too young to be here. Leave this to grown men, ride your tricycle over there. Here's a candy. Good boy."
  - hnfong 3y ago
    I don't understand why the act of not taking a small patch should be interpreted in such a personally insulting way. It sounds like you are just trying pour oil on a fire. Would you prefer to live in a world where people are obliged to spend extra time dealing with easily-broken egos because all non-overtly-friendly acts can and will be interpreted as contempt? I personally rather assume people are well intentioned, and let them focus on fixing problems instead of catering to egos. Or maybe you like playing the ego game. That's fine, but I'm really honestly questioning my assumptions towards humanity in the discussion here. Do people really think I view them in contempt if I don't write a couple paragraphs of words to sooth their egos after I disagree with them?
    - bayindirh 3y ago
      Because it's not about not accepting the patch. I'm not there. It's about the style. About the oil: I'm not that kind of person. I'm just defending what I'm thinking right. Also, I know about oil burns. That's something I'd never wish on my enemy. One doesn't need to be overly, or overtly friendly, or to write long fluffy sentences to come across as kind. It's about the word choice yes, but not in the straightforward way we are wired to think. It's something more subtle. I write many e-mails every day, talking with people from many nations, at every level in many projects. Some of these mails are novellas, some of them are four word bursts. Yet regardless of the length of the mail, I can convey the tone I want, and people understand that. Sometimes I need to say no to people, and I say it directly. Sometimes I thank them sincerely. Rarely I write hard/heavy mails, which is something I hate to do (and I don't use the word lightly), but without any strong words, and they go through too. Being kind is not playing the ego game, and doesn't need extra time. What is wrong is thinking that you can throw words and/or people around just because you don't see their faces, don't like how they name the variables, or you think you can say anything because you're a nerd/geek/hacker/whatever and these features or adjectives give you license to push people around. Lastly, I think soft-skills are way more important in development communities, because your projects' life-span is measured with the health of the community supporting it. Gate-keeping, elitism, and similar acts slowly but surely damages a community. We should strive to be better humans first. Coding is easy. Communication is hard.