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The competitive market has multiple goals - lower prices for consumers is only one of them. Big companies compete in the market by offering the same quality fo

The competitive market has multiple goals - lower prices for consumers is only one of them. Big companies compete in the market by offering the same quality for a lower price. That's good, no problem with them doing that. The problem is when the big companies crush nascent competitors by using their advantages in the market and not by being better quality or more consistent. That's bad; it stifles innovation and creates market concentration, resulting in monopolies and allowing large companies to charge supracompetitive prices.

stale2002 3y ago
> by using their advantages in the market and not by being better quality or more consistent But they have a lower price. That's competition working as intended. Yes, the lower price thing should win out against the more expensive product. > to charge supracompetitive prices. We aren't seeing too high prices. We are seeing low prices and then competitors that suck complaining about the fact that they suck in comparison to the more competitive company.
- ameister14 3y ago
  That is not competition working as intended. So you can have pro-competitive behavior (lower price) that balances out anti-competitive behavior (crushing nascent competitors through market manipulation or cartels); That doesn't mean everything you do is above board. It means that while the lower prices are there, a certain amount of anti-competitive behavior has been acceptable because the net outcome to consumers is theoretically positive. [edit] Think about this - if you can win with lower prices, why do the other anti-competitive behaviors? Why not just have lower prices and let others try to compete with higher quality or lower prices than you? Wouldn't that be better? The reality of this is, though, that the monopoly you form affects far more than the consumer product price. What the FTC is saying here is that they are moving back to structural restriction rather than simply allowing anti-competitive behavior so long as the price is good, a la the Chicago School. >We are seeing low prices and then competitors that suck complaining about the fact that they suck in comparison to the more competitive company. That's not what we're seeing, though. What we are seeing is artificially high prices. One of the allegations is that if a seller prices below Amazon, Amazon removes their access to market.
  - stale2002 3y ago
    > So you can have pro-competitive behavior (lower price) that balances out anti-competitive behavior Defeating competitors with lower prices is pro competitive, not anti competitive. It is exactly what competition is supposed to do. > why do the other anti-competitive behaviors? Notice how I made no comment on anything to do with vague "other behavior". Instead I was only directly responding to the idea of "undercutting" competitors. This is competitive and the whole purpose of competition. Undercutting competitors and copying them is the only thing I was responding to. So my point stands. That thing is pro competitive. Go back and read the comment that I responded to here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37662993 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37662993
    - ameister14 3y ago
      While that was the original comment you responded to, the thread we were on was this one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37668676 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37668676 >> So you can have pro-competitive behavior (lower price) that balances out anti-competitive behavior >Defeating competitors with lower prices is pro competitive, not anti competitive. I already acknowledged that lower prices is a positive, not sure why you repeated that. If that's your only point, then yes - you are right, lower prices is a positive for consumers. It's a balance, though; lower prices don't mean there is no anti-competitive behavior happening. Undercutting competitors and copying them is often fine, though the process by which a competitor is undercut can be anti-competitive itself and have structural consequences that are anti-competitive, and copying competitors is obviously restricted by patent and copyright. It's not a blanket 'this is the whole purpose of competition' thing. >Notice how I made no comment on anything to do with vague "other behavior" It's not vague - it's laid out in the indictment. I get that you don't want to respond to it and only want to prove that lower prices is good, but that conversation ended, we all agree that lower prices for consumers is good. The question is how good. Good enough to balance the bad behavior? The FTC clearly thinks otherwise.
      - stale2002 3y ago
        > and only want to prove that lower prices is good, but that conversation ended When you respond to me and bring something up, it comes off as if you are trying to refute something that I am saying. If you are now that that I was correct completely, and that you were just bringing up a separate point that is irrelevant and does not refute anything that I said, well then OK?

stale2002 3y ago

> by using their advantages in the market and not by being better quality or more consistent But they have a lower price. That's competition working as intended. Yes, the lower price thing should win out against the more expensive product. > to charge supracompetitive prices. We aren't seeing too high prices. We are seeing low prices and then competitors that suck complaining about the fact that they suck in comparison to the more competitive company.

ameister14 3y ago
That is not competition working as intended. So you can have pro-competitive behavior (lower price) that balances out anti-competitive behavior (crushing nascent competitors through market manipulation or cartels); That doesn't mean everything you do is above board. It means that while the lower prices are there, a certain amount of anti-competitive behavior has been acceptable because the net outcome to consumers is theoretically positive. [edit] Think about this - if you can win with lower prices, why do the other anti-competitive behaviors? Why not just have lower prices and let others try to compete with higher quality or lower prices than you? Wouldn't that be better? The reality of this is, though, that the monopoly you form affects far more than the consumer product price. What the FTC is saying here is that they are moving back to structural restriction rather than simply allowing anti-competitive behavior so long as the price is good, a la the Chicago School. >We are seeing low prices and then competitors that suck complaining about the fact that they suck in comparison to the more competitive company. That's not what we're seeing, though. What we are seeing is artificially high prices. One of the allegations is that if a seller prices below Amazon, Amazon removes their access to market.
- stale2002 3y ago
  > So you can have pro-competitive behavior (lower price) that balances out anti-competitive behavior Defeating competitors with lower prices is pro competitive, not anti competitive. It is exactly what competition is supposed to do. > why do the other anti-competitive behaviors? Notice how I made no comment on anything to do with vague "other behavior". Instead I was only directly responding to the idea of "undercutting" competitors. This is competitive and the whole purpose of competition. Undercutting competitors and copying them is the only thing I was responding to. So my point stands. That thing is pro competitive. Go back and read the comment that I responded to here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37662993 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37662993
  - ameister14 3y ago
    While that was the original comment you responded to, the thread we were on was this one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37668676 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37668676 >> So you can have pro-competitive behavior (lower price) that balances out anti-competitive behavior >Defeating competitors with lower prices is pro competitive, not anti competitive. I already acknowledged that lower prices is a positive, not sure why you repeated that. If that's your only point, then yes - you are right, lower prices is a positive for consumers. It's a balance, though; lower prices don't mean there is no anti-competitive behavior happening. Undercutting competitors and copying them is often fine, though the process by which a competitor is undercut can be anti-competitive itself and have structural consequences that are anti-competitive, and copying competitors is obviously restricted by patent and copyright. It's not a blanket 'this is the whole purpose of competition' thing. >Notice how I made no comment on anything to do with vague "other behavior" It's not vague - it's laid out in the indictment. I get that you don't want to respond to it and only want to prove that lower prices is good, but that conversation ended, we all agree that lower prices for consumers is good. The question is how good. Good enough to balance the bad behavior? The FTC clearly thinks otherwise.
    - stale2002 3y ago
      > and only want to prove that lower prices is good, but that conversation ended When you respond to me and bring something up, it comes off as if you are trying to refute something that I am saying. If you are now that that I was correct completely, and that you were just bringing up a separate point that is irrelevant and does not refute anything that I said, well then OK?