4 ms·

The US leads the world in both mass incarceration and recidivism. Jail time is not only not a deterrent, but actively makes the problem worse because incarcerat

The US leads the world in both mass incarceration and recidivism. Jail time is not only not a deterrent, but actively makes the problem worse because incarceration in the US is punitive and is much less focused on rehabilitation. An ex-convict has very few options for employment after they've served their time, so it's unsurprising that many need to steal for their survival. It's a feedback loop that can only get worse without addressing the underlying issues: guaranteeing people's basic needs for survival. Shelter, food, clean water, adequate healthcare. Reducing incarceration should be the goal, but it needs to achieved by addressing those fundamental requirements.

anon373839 3y ago
>An ex-convict has very few options for employment after they've served their time, so it's unsurprising that many need to steal for their survival This trope has little to do with the recent spate of property crimes that spiked right after criminal penalties were removed. These are not desperate people, but rather people who willfully and repeatedly exploit an opportunity to harm others without punishment.
- reverius42 3y ago
  When and where were criminal penalties removed for property crime? I live in Seattle near one of the closing stores and I haven't heard anything about decriminalizing theft here.
  - zo1 3y ago
    Don't wanna be that guy, but just search for it on the internet? I don't even live in your continent and can find all sorts of talk about Seattle's DA petty theft policies. So yes laws are still on the books, but they effectively through various means, don't get prosecuted. Here's just one, as I'm on mobile. https://crosscut.com/2019/10/whats-seattle-doing-solve-its-shoplifting-problem-nothing-really https://crosscut.com/2019/10/whats-seattle-doing-solve-its-s...
    - reverius42 3y ago
      That article literally contradicts the claim made, which is that the law was changed to remove penalties. There have always been crimes that aren't particularly well enforced, and lately the whole system is struggling to enforce low-level criminal law since prosecutors and judges' calendars are full, jails and prisons are full, and yet there is still more crime. Perhaps the difference between places (which all have the same laws on the books) is cultural; perhaps it's that "word got around", as per your link; but it's not because the law says it's not a crime.
sugarplant 3y ago
[flagged]
wkat4242 3y ago
I also don't really understand the wisdom of locking criminals up in a cesspool of other criminals where they can teach each other the tricks of the trade and work on building their networks. The way it's now it's too much like 'crime school'. I don't think it's really about not getting their basic necessities of life. More about just not knowing anything else to do with their lives. Especially for smaller crimes like store theft, it would make a whole lot more sense to put them in community service so they will be surrounded by real communities with people focused on making an honest living.
- junofan 3y ago
  It’s 2023. You can just search #boost on TikTok. I think consequences will serve as a better deterrent.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    Well clearly your system is failing at it with huge rates of incarceration and recidivism. The consequences are heavier than other countries but crime is even higher. And it's not about finding the knowledge. It's about constantly getting slapped in the face with it every day by being surrounded by people that don't even know anything else. It normalizes it. Maybe it's time to look beyond the instinctive kneejerk response and see what really works.
    - zo1 3y ago
      And until we find this glorious and wonderful solution that is claimed to exist? We're expected to live in hell and surrounded by examples of how crime pays. We talk about how jail teaches criminals and hardens them, but what about all the opportunists seeing how they can just get free stuff without work. We substituted one failure for another, and made it worse for everyone overall. There is no way to justify this lawlessness, unless you want to hasten our demise into UBI serfdom.
      - wkat4242 3y ago
        > And until we find this glorious and wonderful solution that is claimed to exist? We're expected to live in hell and surrounded by examples of how crime pays. Maybe look at about every other first-world country in the world where it works a lot better. There's not many first-world countries that have crime levels this heavy and especially hardened violent and organised crime. It could be caused by not just the penal system but also societal norms, income differences etc. A holistic approach is needed. > We talk about how jail teaches criminals and hardens them, but what about all the opportunists seeing how they can just get free stuff without work. We substituted one failure for another, and made it worse for everyone overall. I think this is part of the problem, the strong American aversion to any kind of government assistance to people that need it "because they don't work". It leads to really disadvantaged groups that in turn feel like outcasts and start behaving as such.
prepend 3y ago
> Jail time is not only not a deterrent It seems to deter shoplifting, right? Seems like not jailing shoplifters is resulting in increased shoplifting based on increased shoplifting rates. And repeat individuals, not just more people. So jailing does deter. I think there are better ways to prevent recidivism than jail. But if the only options the state is willing to try are “jail” or “release over and over,” I think we need to choose jail until we can develop something better. And this will result in lots of people in prison.
lenkite 3y ago
> ex-convict has very few options for employment after they've served their time Most of these repeat shop-wipers own fancy sports cars - they don't want regular, boring employment
polski-g 3y ago
The purpose of incarceration is not deterrence, nor for "rehabilitation" (whatever the fuck that is). The purpose is *incapacitation*. It is for society. It is not for the benefit of the criminal. It is to protect society from the malbehavior of the criminal. The reason the US leads the world in incarceration is because the US has a lot of criminals: "If America put nobody in prison except for murderers and rapists, we would still have a larger per capita prison population than Germany (96 per 100,000 vs. 67 per 100,000). Not a single critic of mass incarceration has ever even attempted to come to terms with this reality" Would you go loot an Apple Store if you didn't have "adequate" dental care? Would you rape and murder an Asian shopkeeper if you didn't have "clean water"? No, what an absolutely absurd hypothesis. And yet you people routinely state that is the reason others commit crime. Look at these stats from a supposedly anti-incarceration institute: https://twitter.com/SwannMarcus89/status/1698911461031190835 https://twitter.com/SwannMarcus89/status/1698911461031190835 For those released from prison for a violent crime, the risk of committing a murder is 1%. Wow that sounds low. 1% would be 1000 murders per 100k! Comparing it to country-wide stats, that would make it the most violent country on the planet by a factor of 200. A 1% risk of murder is an insanely high number. And a 71% chance of recommitting another violent crime!
HDThoreaun 3y ago
Jail in the US is not supposed to be about rehabilitation or reforming criminals. It's to provide retributive justice to victims and separate criminals from everyone else.

anon373839 3y ago

>An ex-convict has very few options for employment after they've served their time, so it's unsurprising that many need to steal for their survival This trope has little to do with the recent spate of property crimes that spiked right after criminal penalties were removed. These are not desperate people, but rather people who willfully and repeatedly exploit an opportunity to harm others without punishment.

reverius42 3y ago
When and where were criminal penalties removed for property crime? I live in Seattle near one of the closing stores and I haven't heard anything about decriminalizing theft here.
- zo1 3y ago
  Don't wanna be that guy, but just search for it on the internet? I don't even live in your continent and can find all sorts of talk about Seattle's DA petty theft policies. So yes laws are still on the books, but they effectively through various means, don't get prosecuted. Here's just one, as I'm on mobile. https://crosscut.com/2019/10/whats-seattle-doing-solve-its-shoplifting-problem-nothing-really https://crosscut.com/2019/10/whats-seattle-doing-solve-its-s...
  - reverius42 3y ago
    That article literally contradicts the claim made, which is that the law was changed to remove penalties. There have always been crimes that aren't particularly well enforced, and lately the whole system is struggling to enforce low-level criminal law since prosecutors and judges' calendars are full, jails and prisons are full, and yet there is still more crime. Perhaps the difference between places (which all have the same laws on the books) is cultural; perhaps it's that "word got around", as per your link; but it's not because the law says it's not a crime.

sugarplant 3y ago

[flagged]

wkat4242 3y ago

I also don't really understand the wisdom of locking criminals up in a cesspool of other criminals where they can teach each other the tricks of the trade and work on building their networks. The way it's now it's too much like 'crime school'. I don't think it's really about not getting their basic necessities of life. More about just not knowing anything else to do with their lives. Especially for smaller crimes like store theft, it would make a whole lot more sense to put them in community service so they will be surrounded by real communities with people focused on making an honest living.

junofan 3y ago
It’s 2023. You can just search #boost on TikTok. I think consequences will serve as a better deterrent.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  Well clearly your system is failing at it with huge rates of incarceration and recidivism. The consequences are heavier than other countries but crime is even higher. And it's not about finding the knowledge. It's about constantly getting slapped in the face with it every day by being surrounded by people that don't even know anything else. It normalizes it. Maybe it's time to look beyond the instinctive kneejerk response and see what really works.
  - zo1 3y ago
    And until we find this glorious and wonderful solution that is claimed to exist? We're expected to live in hell and surrounded by examples of how crime pays. We talk about how jail teaches criminals and hardens them, but what about all the opportunists seeing how they can just get free stuff without work. We substituted one failure for another, and made it worse for everyone overall. There is no way to justify this lawlessness, unless you want to hasten our demise into UBI serfdom.
    - wkat4242 3y ago
      > And until we find this glorious and wonderful solution that is claimed to exist? We're expected to live in hell and surrounded by examples of how crime pays. Maybe look at about every other first-world country in the world where it works a lot better. There's not many first-world countries that have crime levels this heavy and especially hardened violent and organised crime. It could be caused by not just the penal system but also societal norms, income differences etc. A holistic approach is needed. > We talk about how jail teaches criminals and hardens them, but what about all the opportunists seeing how they can just get free stuff without work. We substituted one failure for another, and made it worse for everyone overall. I think this is part of the problem, the strong American aversion to any kind of government assistance to people that need it "because they don't work". It leads to really disadvantaged groups that in turn feel like outcasts and start behaving as such.

prepend 3y ago

> Jail time is not only not a deterrent It seems to deter shoplifting, right? Seems like not jailing shoplifters is resulting in increased shoplifting based on increased shoplifting rates. And repeat individuals, not just more people. So jailing does deter. I think there are better ways to prevent recidivism than jail. But if the only options the state is willing to try are “jail” or “release over and over,” I think we need to choose jail until we can develop something better. And this will result in lots of people in prison.

lenkite 3y ago

> ex-convict has very few options for employment after they've served their time Most of these repeat shop-wipers own fancy sports cars - they don't want regular, boring employment

polski-g 3y ago

The purpose of incarceration is not deterrence, nor for "rehabilitation" (whatever the fuck that is). The purpose is *incapacitation*. It is for society. It is not for the benefit of the criminal. It is to protect society from the malbehavior of the criminal. The reason the US leads the world in incarceration is because the US has a lot of criminals: "If America put nobody in prison except for murderers and rapists, we would still have a larger per capita prison population than Germany (96 per 100,000 vs. 67 per 100,000). Not a single critic of mass incarceration has ever even attempted to come to terms with this reality" Would you go loot an Apple Store if you didn't have "adequate" dental care? Would you rape and murder an Asian shopkeeper if you didn't have "clean water"? No, what an absolutely absurd hypothesis. And yet you people routinely state that is the reason others commit crime. Look at these stats from a supposedly anti-incarceration institute: https://twitter.com/SwannMarcus89/status/1698911461031190835 https://twitter.com/SwannMarcus89/status/1698911461031190835 For those released from prison for a violent crime, the risk of committing a murder is 1%. Wow that sounds low. 1% would be 1000 murders per 100k! Comparing it to country-wide stats, that would make it the most violent country on the planet by a factor of 200. A 1% risk of murder is an insanely high number. And a 71% chance of recommitting another violent crime!

HDThoreaun 3y ago

Jail in the US is not supposed to be about rehabilitation or reforming criminals. It's to provide retributive justice to victims and separate criminals from everyone else.