5 ms·

Good lord, this is the whinge that never ends, isn’t it? If you want an Android phone, dozens if not hundreds of companies will sell you one. You can quite lite

Good lord, this is the whinge that never ends, isn’t it? If you want an Android phone, dozens if not hundreds of companies will sell you one. You can quite literally choose the level of openness you desire. Personally I prefer the Apple ecosystem where things just tend to work well. It would be difficult to care less about running something other than Safari on an iPhone. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy Apple’s products. I truly don’t understand treating them as some kind of monopoly.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
I downvoted this because you're ignoring iMessage. The fact that Apple purposefully not only gives Android users a shitty experience when communicating with iOS users, but also ensures that the presence of an Android user can break the experience for everyone else in a group chat (e.g. degraded videos now for everyone) in iMessage is a blatant attempt to abuse their monopoly power (in the US at least where iMessage dominates). I've been an Android user for years and am reluctantly seriously considering getting an iPhone solely because my friends bitch at me all the time when I'm in a group chat. Apple doesn't even need to make an Android version of iMessage, they just need to support RCS instead of SMS/MMS: https://www.android.com/get-the-message/ https://www.android.com/get-the-message/
- 8zah6q7 3y ago
  The green bubbles break Apple's accessibility guidelines - making it more difficult to read (especially for visually impaired users). The better option is switching to Signal, but some people have strange hangups.
  - ProfessorLayton 3y ago
    Accessibility > Display & Text Size > Increase Contrast If there’s one thing Apple is doing right, it’s building excellent accessibility options right into their OS.
- nicbou 3y ago
  iMessage is pretty rare. Europe is on WhatsApp
  - peanuty1 3y ago
    Don't most Europeans use Android whereas most Americans/Canadians/Australians/Britons use iPhone?
    - tommiegannert 3y ago
      US: Apple first at 42% in 2022 (Samsung second at 35%) [1] Europe: Apple second at 23% in 2021 (Samsung first at 29%) [2] I wouldn't say that most Americans use iPhone, but the market-share is significantly bigger. [1] https://mobilityarena.com/top-5-mobile-phone-brands-in-the-usa/?expand_article=1 https://mobilityarena.com/top-5-mobile-phone-brands-in-the-u... [2] https://www.phonearena.com/news/smartphone-market-europe-2021-samsung-leader-apple-second_id138757 https://www.phonearena.com/news/smartphone-market-europe-202...
  - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
    The opposite is true in the US. I'd guess that 95%+ of iOS users in the US text primarily on iMessage (excluding those who are primarily texting international contacts). I'm fact, that's probably the biggest reason I think Apple has been able to abuse their iMessage stance for so long: the EU has been far stronger at regulating compatibility and interoperability (we can thank the EU for the fact that we can finally get rid of tons of dongles), but I think they've been less vigilant about iMessage solely because it's much less of a factor in Europe.
    - arlcode 3y ago
      It would be pretty hard to argue that iMessage has a market domineering position in Europe and therefore not appropriate for the EU to regulate it. That being said, I hope that once the other services are forced to interop apple will have no choice than to do the same. It's probably hard to imagine in the US but people here absolutely will abandon iMessage over this. Their market position is weak enough that none of my family/friends/acquaintances who own an iPhone has even considered asking for anything but the "default" aka WhatsApp. Sometimes Signal or telegram but never iMessage.
- ShrimpHawk 3y ago
  RCS is a half baked implementation from google; the company that has killed every single chat app they've released. It's a spec that relies on carrier implementation of any feature and if actually implemented by a majority would immediately go the way of SMS and people would cry for a new better spec in a few years. We have seen all of this before and the push for RCS from google is propaganda because iMessage is effective for iOS lock-in and Apple sales. Users have the freedom to install any third party chat app and use that if they don't like iMessage. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/08/a-decade-and-a-half-of-instability-the-history-of-google-messaging-apps/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/08/a-decade-and-a-half-... > Even if you could snap your fingers and magically roll out RCS to every device, you wouldn't actually create a competitive messaging solution. Being a standard created in 2008 means RCS has standards from 2008, and it's lacking things you would want from a modern messaging service, like end-to-end encryption. The Google Messenger strategy strangely insists on using RCS as the base protocol, but the service also keeps trying to build features on top of it that kick in when both users are on Google Messages.
- snow_mac 3y ago
  I hate android users, get a damn iPhone.
- turquoisevar 3y ago
  I suggest you stop drinking the Google Koolaid, they’re not being honest. > The fact that Apple purposefully not only gives Android users a shitty experience when communicating with iOS users You mean utilizing the standardized SMS and MMS protocols? How is that purposeful? Just because they refuse to rollout iMessage on Android? > but also ensures that the presence of an Android user can break the experience for everyone else in a group chat (e.g. degraded videos now for everyone) in iMessage Again, they switch to SMS/MMS to be compatible with Android devices. Video quality (and photo quality for the master) can only be as good as the limitations of MMS. Contrary to what Google implies, Apple isn’t doing something on purpose to make videos shitty, the MMS protocol simply can’t handle original quality photos. > is a blatant attempt to abuse their monopoly power (in the US at least where iMessage dominates) No, a blatant attempt at abusing a monopoly power would be them saying they drop support for SMS and MMS so you can’t text to Android users anymore because people keep repeating nonsense talking points fed by Google so they’d rather just not deal with the headache. > Apple doesn't even need to make an Android version of iMessage, they just need to support RCS instead of SMS/MMS: https://www.android.com/get-the-message/ https://www.android.com/get-the-message/ There is no “RCS”, not as a working standard anyways. The BS Google is peddling is their proprietary flavor of RCS that runs on their Jibe servers, Google’s own attempt at iMessage if you will. Google wants Apple to adopt “G iMessage” or at the very least hook Apple’s iMessage into Google’s proprietary “RCS” implementation, presumably in part to get a whiff of all the data that would be routed through their servers. We know this based on slew of things: 1. Half of the features listed on that propaganda website aren’t part of the RCS “standard”, they are however part of Google’s proprietary RCS implementation. So it stands to reason that Google is talking about their proprietary RCS solution 2. Google is using “RCS” as a brand name, when they talk about “RCS” they talk about their proprietary flavor of RCS, similar to how Apple uses the brand “iMessage”[0] 3. Pretty much all of the “RCS” out in the world is Google’s proprietary RCS implementation that runs on Jobe servers. The original RCS standard was conceived by the GSMA (its full members being carriers) intended to be implemented at the carrier level. Carriers however had no appetite of implementing it so now what passes as “RCS” is almost exclusively run by Google. This is either done via the Google branded Messaging app or with a white label construction bearing the logo of carriers and manufacturers via either a direct relationship with Jibe or one of the middlemen[1] that sell Jibe’s services. This means that globally, whether offered by an OEM or carrier, close to all “RCS” offered is just Google’s proprietary implementation of RCS. The only thing stopping Google from having a true monopoly on texting services is the fact that Apple refuses to run the iMessage network through Google’s Jibe service. If what is being touted as RCS would’ve been a true standard like SMS or MMS then I could see Apple adopting it as a fallback option like they already do with SMS and MMS, but since the handful of specs that are cobbled together as a “standard” are hardly any better than those two ancient standards and since what Google is pushing for is essentially Apple adopting Google’s own iMessage, I don’t see it ever happening. 0: https://www.phonearena.com/news/google-drops-chat-for-rcs_id145788 https://www.phonearena.com/news/google-drops-chat-for-rcs_id... 1: https://jibe.google.com/partners/messaging-partners/ https://jibe.google.com/partners/messaging-partners/
- geocar 3y ago
  > Apple doesn't even need to make an Android version of iMessage, they just need to support RCS instead of SMS/MMS: https://www.android.com/get-the-message/ https://www.android.com/get-the-message/ Or Google could have just licensed iMessage. RCS is not a consumer benefit: RCS gives strange powers to the carrier that your phone connects to (as opposed to the company you contract with; i.e. your mobile carrier), powers over your camera, microphone, radio, power levels, and motion sensors. I don't care if T-Mobile can offer "true" 4G video calling with it with other T-mobile customers. Nobody fucking wants that. Google deciding to partner with American Telcos and the American Government to get RCS standardized has confused you into thinking Apple did something wrong, or is continuing to do something wrong by not adopting Google's RCS (and paying Google's license fees for RCS, integrating with every carrier, and so on) instead of Google paying Apple for iMessage (and paying Apple's license fees for iMessage). This isn't your fault, you're just proof that Google's advertising is working and that Google is really good at advertising and marketing. https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/25/20931699/android-messaging-ccmi-rcs-mess-isis-google-fiascotastrophe https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/25/20931699/android-messagi... https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/9/23297951/google-apple-rcs-adoption-campaign-getthemessage-blue-green-messages https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/9/23297951/google-apple-rcs-...
  - laverya 3y ago
    I think a lot of Android manufacturers would be willing to pay Apple for iMessage access/licensing. I strongly doubt that Apple would be willing to sell that without the EU forcing them to.
    - geocar 3y ago
      > I think a lot of Android manufacturers would be willing to pay Apple for iMessage access/licensing. I think you overestimate the markup Android manufacturers make, and underestimate what Google makes. > I strongly doubt that Apple would be willing to sell that without the EU forcing them to. You would be wrong! Apple already allows programmatic access to iMessage (call centers can dial/message directly with it including number-fronting, do apps, etc), so it really is just a matter of the fact that Google isn't willing to pay.
- FridgeSeal 3y ago
  > The fact that Apple purposefully not only gives Android users a shitty experience when communicating with iOS users Because it’s an iOS-to-iOS product feature. Because its functionality is predicated on Apple Hardware features. If you want iOS features, buy an iOS device.
- ragestorm 3y ago
  Just be careful getting anything that you barely use (I.e., less risk of breaking). Since we are locked to the AppStore, older iOS products can’t even download certain apps and there isn’t a way to get a previous app version that works with your product. Simple apps like YouTube require iOS 14+. If you didn’t download before or had to factory reset once the app version updates, you are SoL.
jedimind 3y ago
your regurgitated talking points are copy pasta at this point, they have been thoroughly refuted a billion times - so I'm gonna keep it short and sweet, if Apple doesn't like the European guidelines they are welcome to stop selling their products there.
- shuckles 3y ago
  Really weird response to a person that seems to instead be addressed to Apple Inc?
- n8cpdx 3y ago
  I do think Apple withdrawing from the EU would be preferable to degrading the experience, quality, and safety of the platform for the vast majority of people who are not in the EU.
seydor 3y ago
Apple is not following standards, web standards , messaging standards and this hurts developers , especially smaller ones, and prevents competition. How would you force them to follow the standards ?
ImJamal 3y ago
>Nobody is forcing anyone to buy Apple’s products Nobody is forcing you to use any third party browser or app store of anything else.
- NietTim 3y ago
  But opening up the sandbox makes everyones phones more unsafe.
  - Moldoteck 3y ago
    And what? Your security is still untouched. Want pristine xp, you get it, want to sideload? Ya, no prob. This is called freedom. You can keep your apple experience while others can get more
  - ThatPlayer 3y ago
    There are no requirements for an open sandbox that any first party service doesn't also have.
Vinnl 3y ago
I don't want my Apple phone to be opened up, I want my customer's Apple phones to be opened up.
TrackerFF 3y ago
My work phone is an iPhone. I had no say in that. Lot's of people are using Apple hardware because that's what their employers are buying.
carlosjobim 3y ago
It is a psychological quirk of the human mind when people have choices. You see it all the time here on HN and in the real world. People agonizing about what different "ecosystems" they should use or which things they should purchase. The truth is that you can have both an iPhone and an Android phone and use both of them as you please. You can have a computer for OS X and one to dual-boot Linux and Windows. You can use a bunch of different text editors, depending on which suits you for the task at hand. You don't have to chose between Gmail and Fastmail, you can use them both. You can have several different web browsers installed on your machine and use them as you please. People in these forums agonize over tech choices like it is something that they will have to stick with exclusively for the rest of their lives. I really don't get it. You don't have to chose between having a car or a bicycle. You can have both, and are free to walk as well when you feel like. I like Apple's products and services, but if they don't offer something that is important to me and some competitors offer this, I can simply use the products of a competitor. Why would I trust the most corrupted bureaucrats this planet has ever seen to start interfering?

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago

I downvoted this because you're ignoring iMessage. The fact that Apple purposefully not only gives Android users a shitty experience when communicating with iOS users, but also ensures that the presence of an Android user can break the experience for everyone else in a group chat (e.g. degraded videos now for everyone) in iMessage is a blatant attempt to abuse their monopoly power (in the US at least where iMessage dominates). I've been an Android user for years and am reluctantly seriously considering getting an iPhone solely because my friends bitch at me all the time when I'm in a group chat. Apple doesn't even need to make an Android version of iMessage, they just need to support RCS instead of SMS/MMS: https://www.android.com/get-the-message/ https://www.android.com/get-the-message/

8zah6q7 3y ago
The green bubbles break Apple's accessibility guidelines - making it more difficult to read (especially for visually impaired users). The better option is switching to Signal, but some people have strange hangups.
- ProfessorLayton 3y ago
  Accessibility > Display & Text Size > Increase Contrast If there’s one thing Apple is doing right, it’s building excellent accessibility options right into their OS.
nicbou 3y ago
iMessage is pretty rare. Europe is on WhatsApp
- peanuty1 3y ago
  Don't most Europeans use Android whereas most Americans/Canadians/Australians/Britons use iPhone?
  - tommiegannert 3y ago
    US: Apple first at 42% in 2022 (Samsung second at 35%) [1] Europe: Apple second at 23% in 2021 (Samsung first at 29%) [2] I wouldn't say that most Americans use iPhone, but the market-share is significantly bigger. [1] https://mobilityarena.com/top-5-mobile-phone-brands-in-the-usa/?expand_article=1 https://mobilityarena.com/top-5-mobile-phone-brands-in-the-u... [2] https://www.phonearena.com/news/smartphone-market-europe-2021-samsung-leader-apple-second_id138757 https://www.phonearena.com/news/smartphone-market-europe-202...
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  The opposite is true in the US. I'd guess that 95%+ of iOS users in the US text primarily on iMessage (excluding those who are primarily texting international contacts). I'm fact, that's probably the biggest reason I think Apple has been able to abuse their iMessage stance for so long: the EU has been far stronger at regulating compatibility and interoperability (we can thank the EU for the fact that we can finally get rid of tons of dongles), but I think they've been less vigilant about iMessage solely because it's much less of a factor in Europe.
  - arlcode 3y ago
    It would be pretty hard to argue that iMessage has a market domineering position in Europe and therefore not appropriate for the EU to regulate it. That being said, I hope that once the other services are forced to interop apple will have no choice than to do the same. It's probably hard to imagine in the US but people here absolutely will abandon iMessage over this. Their market position is weak enough that none of my family/friends/acquaintances who own an iPhone has even considered asking for anything but the "default" aka WhatsApp. Sometimes Signal or telegram but never iMessage.
ShrimpHawk 3y ago
RCS is a half baked implementation from google; the company that has killed every single chat app they've released. It's a spec that relies on carrier implementation of any feature and if actually implemented by a majority would immediately go the way of SMS and people would cry for a new better spec in a few years. We have seen all of this before and the push for RCS from google is propaganda because iMessage is effective for iOS lock-in and Apple sales. Users have the freedom to install any third party chat app and use that if they don't like iMessage. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/08/a-decade-and-a-half-of-instability-the-history-of-google-messaging-apps/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/08/a-decade-and-a-half-... > Even if you could snap your fingers and magically roll out RCS to every device, you wouldn't actually create a competitive messaging solution. Being a standard created in 2008 means RCS has standards from 2008, and it's lacking things you would want from a modern messaging service, like end-to-end encryption. The Google Messenger strategy strangely insists on using RCS as the base protocol, but the service also keeps trying to build features on top of it that kick in when both users are on Google Messages.
snow_mac 3y ago
I hate android users, get a damn iPhone.
turquoisevar 3y ago
I suggest you stop drinking the Google Koolaid, they’re not being honest. > The fact that Apple purposefully not only gives Android users a shitty experience when communicating with iOS users You mean utilizing the standardized SMS and MMS protocols? How is that purposeful? Just because they refuse to rollout iMessage on Android? > but also ensures that the presence of an Android user can break the experience for everyone else in a group chat (e.g. degraded videos now for everyone) in iMessage Again, they switch to SMS/MMS to be compatible with Android devices. Video quality (and photo quality for the master) can only be as good as the limitations of MMS. Contrary to what Google implies, Apple isn’t doing something on purpose to make videos shitty, the MMS protocol simply can’t handle original quality photos. > is a blatant attempt to abuse their monopoly power (in the US at least where iMessage dominates) No, a blatant attempt at abusing a monopoly power would be them saying they drop support for SMS and MMS so you can’t text to Android users anymore because people keep repeating nonsense talking points fed by Google so they’d rather just not deal with the headache. > Apple doesn't even need to make an Android version of iMessage, they just need to support RCS instead of SMS/MMS: https://www.android.com/get-the-message/ https://www.android.com/get-the-message/ There is no “RCS”, not as a working standard anyways. The BS Google is peddling is their proprietary flavor of RCS that runs on their Jibe servers, Google’s own attempt at iMessage if you will. Google wants Apple to adopt “G iMessage” or at the very least hook Apple’s iMessage into Google’s proprietary “RCS” implementation, presumably in part to get a whiff of all the data that would be routed through their servers. We know this based on slew of things: 1. Half of the features listed on that propaganda website aren’t part of the RCS “standard”, they are however part of Google’s proprietary RCS implementation. So it stands to reason that Google is talking about their proprietary RCS solution 2. Google is using “RCS” as a brand name, when they talk about “RCS” they talk about their proprietary flavor of RCS, similar to how Apple uses the brand “iMessage”[0] 3. Pretty much all of the “RCS” out in the world is Google’s proprietary RCS implementation that runs on Jobe servers. The original RCS standard was conceived by the GSMA (its full members being carriers) intended to be implemented at the carrier level. Carriers however had no appetite of implementing it so now what passes as “RCS” is almost exclusively run by Google. This is either done via the Google branded Messaging app or with a white label construction bearing the logo of carriers and manufacturers via either a direct relationship with Jibe or one of the middlemen[1] that sell Jibe’s services. This means that globally, whether offered by an OEM or carrier, close to all “RCS” offered is just Google’s proprietary implementation of RCS. The only thing stopping Google from having a true monopoly on texting services is the fact that Apple refuses to run the iMessage network through Google’s Jibe service. If what is being touted as RCS would’ve been a true standard like SMS or MMS then I could see Apple adopting it as a fallback option like they already do with SMS and MMS, but since the handful of specs that are cobbled together as a “standard” are hardly any better than those two ancient standards and since what Google is pushing for is essentially Apple adopting Google’s own iMessage, I don’t see it ever happening. 0: https://www.phonearena.com/news/google-drops-chat-for-rcs_id145788 https://www.phonearena.com/news/google-drops-chat-for-rcs_id... 1: https://jibe.google.com/partners/messaging-partners/ https://jibe.google.com/partners/messaging-partners/
geocar 3y ago
> Apple doesn't even need to make an Android version of iMessage, they just need to support RCS instead of SMS/MMS: https://www.android.com/get-the-message/ https://www.android.com/get-the-message/ Or Google could have just licensed iMessage. RCS is not a consumer benefit: RCS gives strange powers to the carrier that your phone connects to (as opposed to the company you contract with; i.e. your mobile carrier), powers over your camera, microphone, radio, power levels, and motion sensors. I don't care if T-Mobile can offer "true" 4G video calling with it with other T-mobile customers. Nobody fucking wants that. Google deciding to partner with American Telcos and the American Government to get RCS standardized has confused you into thinking Apple did something wrong, or is continuing to do something wrong by not adopting Google's RCS (and paying Google's license fees for RCS, integrating with every carrier, and so on) instead of Google paying Apple for iMessage (and paying Apple's license fees for iMessage). This isn't your fault, you're just proof that Google's advertising is working and that Google is really good at advertising and marketing. https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/25/20931699/android-messaging-ccmi-rcs-mess-isis-google-fiascotastrophe https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/25/20931699/android-messagi... https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/9/23297951/google-apple-rcs-adoption-campaign-getthemessage-blue-green-messages https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/9/23297951/google-apple-rcs-...
- laverya 3y ago
  I think a lot of Android manufacturers would be willing to pay Apple for iMessage access/licensing. I strongly doubt that Apple would be willing to sell that without the EU forcing them to.
  - geocar 3y ago
    > I think a lot of Android manufacturers would be willing to pay Apple for iMessage access/licensing. I think you overestimate the markup Android manufacturers make, and underestimate what Google makes. > I strongly doubt that Apple would be willing to sell that without the EU forcing them to. You would be wrong! Apple already allows programmatic access to iMessage (call centers can dial/message directly with it including number-fronting, do apps, etc), so it really is just a matter of the fact that Google isn't willing to pay.
FridgeSeal 3y ago
> The fact that Apple purposefully not only gives Android users a shitty experience when communicating with iOS users Because it’s an iOS-to-iOS product feature. Because its functionality is predicated on Apple Hardware features. If you want iOS features, buy an iOS device.
ragestorm 3y ago
Just be careful getting anything that you barely use (I.e., less risk of breaking). Since we are locked to the AppStore, older iOS products can’t even download certain apps and there isn’t a way to get a previous app version that works with your product. Simple apps like YouTube require iOS 14+. If you didn’t download before or had to factory reset once the app version updates, you are SoL.

jedimind 3y ago

your regurgitated talking points are copy pasta at this point, they have been thoroughly refuted a billion times - so I'm gonna keep it short and sweet, if Apple doesn't like the European guidelines they are welcome to stop selling their products there.

shuckles 3y ago
Really weird response to a person that seems to instead be addressed to Apple Inc?
n8cpdx 3y ago
I do think Apple withdrawing from the EU would be preferable to degrading the experience, quality, and safety of the platform for the vast majority of people who are not in the EU.

seydor 3y ago

Apple is not following standards, web standards , messaging standards and this hurts developers , especially smaller ones, and prevents competition. How would you force them to follow the standards ?

ImJamal 3y ago

>Nobody is forcing anyone to buy Apple’s products Nobody is forcing you to use any third party browser or app store of anything else.

NietTim 3y ago
But opening up the sandbox makes everyones phones more unsafe.
- Moldoteck 3y ago
  And what? Your security is still untouched. Want pristine xp, you get it, want to sideload? Ya, no prob. This is called freedom. You can keep your apple experience while others can get more
- ThatPlayer 3y ago
  There are no requirements for an open sandbox that any first party service doesn't also have.

Vinnl 3y ago

I don't want my Apple phone to be opened up, I want my customer's Apple phones to be opened up.

TrackerFF 3y ago

My work phone is an iPhone. I had no say in that. Lot's of people are using Apple hardware because that's what their employers are buying.

carlosjobim 3y ago

It is a psychological quirk of the human mind when people have choices. You see it all the time here on HN and in the real world. People agonizing about what different "ecosystems" they should use or which things they should purchase. The truth is that you can have both an iPhone and an Android phone and use both of them as you please. You can have a computer for OS X and one to dual-boot Linux and Windows. You can use a bunch of different text editors, depending on which suits you for the task at hand. You don't have to chose between Gmail and Fastmail, you can use them both. You can have several different web browsers installed on your machine and use them as you please. People in these forums agonize over tech choices like it is something that they will have to stick with exclusively for the rest of their lives. I really don't get it. You don't have to chose between having a car or a bicycle. You can have both, and are free to walk as well when you feel like. I like Apple's products and services, but if they don't offer something that is important to me and some competitors offer this, I can simply use the products of a competitor. Why would I trust the most corrupted bureaucrats this planet has ever seen to start interfering?