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Don't use their products then? Nobody is forcing you to.

by Daz1 3y ago

simonw 3y ago
Sounds like you're suggesting "meaningful pushback" as well then.
pockybum522 3y ago
Unfortunately, that doesn't work. If Reddit is any indication, the moral of the story is they can get away with it because there's a million idiots all ready to take your place.
- ddtaylor 3y ago
  I think the difference here is that Reddit wasn't bought at a retail location and you couldn't just return it to the store and get your money back. People can and SHOULD return this garbage to the retail store the minute they get home and realized it's encumbered in this way.
benkillin 3y ago
except every single manufacture is going down this road pretty much, they want to monetize all that data because more money equals more better, privacy be damned.
- incongruity 3y ago
  Laws. We need the force of law protecting us when entire industries work against the public good.
HWR_14 3y ago
What about when you already purchased a product and an automatic update moves functionality, possibly core functionality, behind their app wall?
- sneak 3y ago
  Normally you would be able to simply continue using the firmware on it, plus the app you originally installed, in perpetuity. In reality, on each new iOS device, Apple forces you to use the current version of the app in the App Store now, and your old version apps are not included in backups or able to be transferred to new devices. You are eventually forced to use the latest version of the app by Apple. The latest version of the app will require the latest firmware or will modal lock you out until you upgrade the device. Blame Apple for not letting you preserve your old versions of working apps between backups and devices, and blame Apple for allowing time bomb expiring apps like Signal and Chase Mobile into the App Store. Further blame Apple for not having an iOS "internet access" permission per app that would prevent these apps from learning that there are new, unwanted firmware updates available when all you want to do is local operations. Finally, any product that requires that you "sign up/log in" on the first screen and can't be used otherwise without PII should go straight back into the box to be returned.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
chiefalchemist 3y ago
Fair enough. But what if you bought the product, paid a fair amount for it (i.e., you can't just shit-can it) and *then* X months later the brand suddenly require a sign up, subscription fee, etc. Then what?
- lp0_on_fire 3y ago
  Exactly. I have hundreds of dollars tied up in MY hue products. I paid the market price for a device that didn't require me to sign up for an account. As far as I'm concerned these companies should get hit with deceptive advertising charges. Yes, I realize that buried somewhere two or three hundred paragraphs deep in the TOS I "agreed" to let them do this. Then again maybe I didn't, because I also likely "agreed" to have the TOS changed at any time for any reason without warning. That is key here. IMO These companies get away with this because they can toss out one of the basics of contract law. It is unconscionable that one party can _unilaterally_ change the terms of the contact (the "terms of service") without prior warning or input from the other party (me, as the purchaser of said device/service). Basic contract law should apply here. What _tangible_ benefits are there to me
- Daz1 3y ago
  Step 1: Make discontent known to brand Step 2: Create/join community of fellow disaffected individuals Step 3: Use community to spread awareness of said dissatisfaction Step 4: Observe as sales of product fall off and brand reputation falters Step 5A: Observe as brand reverses unpopular decision and recovers OR Step 5B: Observe as brand is replaced in the market by one which better meets consumer preferences
  - pdonis 3y ago
    Has this ever actually happened?
    - Daz1 3y ago
      The market is littered with the corpses of companies who failed to meet consumer demand.
1ncorrect 3y ago
A: I already explicitly avoid products that are encrusted in this shit. B: I have not used either of these products since their respective changes, even though they’re otherwise still perfectly functional. A notable flow on effect is both of these products had helped with the management and improvement of my health, and these changes have had a measurable negative impact since I’ve been unable to use them.
castlecrasher2 3y ago
How can you avoid products that are unilaterally and unexpectedly changed in the future? The answer is you can't.
- Daz1 3y ago
  Dunno this looks pretty safe to me https://www.lighting.philips.co.uk/consumer/p/led-bulb/8718696586358 https://www.lighting.philips.co.uk/consumer/p/led-bulb/87186...
boringg 3y ago
Do you live in the real world or are you on a farm living off the land? Completely useless comment.
- Daz1 3y ago
  No but I live in the amazing world of free-market capitalism where I can choose to reward whichever company best meets my preferences as a consumer with money.

Don't use their products then? Nobody is forcing you to.

by Daz1 3y ago

Don't use their products then? Nobody is forcing you to.

simonw 3y ago

Sounds like you're suggesting "meaningful pushback" as well then.

pockybum522 3y ago

Unfortunately, that doesn't work. If Reddit is any indication, the moral of the story is they can get away with it because there's a million idiots all ready to take your place.

ddtaylor 3y ago
I think the difference here is that Reddit wasn't bought at a retail location and you couldn't just return it to the store and get your money back. People can and SHOULD return this garbage to the retail store the minute they get home and realized it's encumbered in this way.

benkillin 3y ago

except every single manufacture is going down this road pretty much, they want to monetize all that data because more money equals more better, privacy be damned.

incongruity 3y ago
Laws. We need the force of law protecting us when entire industries work against the public good.

HWR_14 3y ago

What about when you already purchased a product and an automatic update moves functionality, possibly core functionality, behind their app wall?

sneak 3y ago
Normally you would be able to simply continue using the firmware on it, plus the app you originally installed, in perpetuity. In reality, on each new iOS device, Apple forces you to use the current version of the app in the App Store now, and your old version apps are not included in backups or able to be transferred to new devices. You are eventually forced to use the latest version of the app by Apple. The latest version of the app will require the latest firmware or will modal lock you out until you upgrade the device. Blame Apple for not letting you preserve your old versions of working apps between backups and devices, and blame Apple for allowing time bomb expiring apps like Signal and Chase Mobile into the App Store. Further blame Apple for not having an iOS "internet access" permission per app that would prevent these apps from learning that there are new, unwanted firmware updates available when all you want to do is local operations. Finally, any product that requires that you "sign up/log in" on the first screen and can't be used otherwise without PII should go straight back into the box to be returned.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

chiefalchemist 3y ago

Fair enough. But what if you bought the product, paid a fair amount for it (i.e., you can't just shit-can it) and *then* X months later the brand suddenly require a sign up, subscription fee, etc. Then what?

lp0_on_fire 3y ago
Exactly. I have hundreds of dollars tied up in MY hue products. I paid the market price for a device that didn't require me to sign up for an account. As far as I'm concerned these companies should get hit with deceptive advertising charges. Yes, I realize that buried somewhere two or three hundred paragraphs deep in the TOS I "agreed" to let them do this. Then again maybe I didn't, because I also likely "agreed" to have the TOS changed at any time for any reason without warning. That is key here. IMO These companies get away with this because they can toss out one of the basics of contract law. It is unconscionable that one party can _unilaterally_ change the terms of the contact (the "terms of service") without prior warning or input from the other party (me, as the purchaser of said device/service). Basic contract law should apply here. What _tangible_ benefits are there to me
Daz1 3y ago
Step 1: Make discontent known to brand Step 2: Create/join community of fellow disaffected individuals Step 3: Use community to spread awareness of said dissatisfaction Step 4: Observe as sales of product fall off and brand reputation falters Step 5A: Observe as brand reverses unpopular decision and recovers OR Step 5B: Observe as brand is replaced in the market by one which better meets consumer preferences
- pdonis 3y ago
  Has this ever actually happened?
  - Daz1 3y ago
    The market is littered with the corpses of companies who failed to meet consumer demand.

1ncorrect 3y ago

A: I already explicitly avoid products that are encrusted in this shit. B: I have not used either of these products since their respective changes, even though they’re otherwise still perfectly functional. A notable flow on effect is both of these products had helped with the management and improvement of my health, and these changes have had a measurable negative impact since I’ve been unable to use them.

castlecrasher2 3y ago

How can you avoid products that are unilaterally and unexpectedly changed in the future? The answer is you can't.

Daz1 3y ago
Dunno this looks pretty safe to me https://www.lighting.philips.co.uk/consumer/p/led-bulb/8718696586358 https://www.lighting.philips.co.uk/consumer/p/led-bulb/87186...

boringg 3y ago

Do you live in the real world or are you on a farm living off the land? Completely useless comment.

Daz1 3y ago
No but I live in the amazing world of free-market capitalism where I can choose to reward whichever company best meets my preferences as a consumer with money.