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> If you sell a general-purpose computing device and market it as one, you should relinquish any control of it once it's sold. The freedoms we have, and the fr

> If you sell a general-purpose computing device and market it as one, you should relinquish any control of it once it's sold. The freedoms we have, and the freedom that should be protected is market choice to buy or not buy any consumer product. If you don’t like Apple, don’t buy its products and purchase a device from a large number of competitors. It is really that simple. There is no rule that consumers have a right to do anything. You are not guaranteed a right to install a Windows app on your iPhone, or iPhone apps on Windows. You aren’t guaranteed that your coffee machine can run Python.

grishka 3y ago
But as an app developer, I have no choice, Apple will act like they own my relationship with my users despite having done absolutely nothing for it.
- davidham 3y ago
  Nothing? They provide and run the marketplace that distributes your app anywhere in the world, and handles nearly frictionless payment. And they have created a marketplace where users feel safe downloading your app. As an Apple customer I value these things pretty highly, more than I value any one app.
  - grishka 3y ago
    > They provide and run the marketplace that distributes your app anywhere in the world It's nice that they provide that service for those developers that want it. It's not nice that I don't have a choice to distribute my own app however I see fit. See, I want to build an app, and people want to install it, but Apple is standing between us, dictating how we must and must not interact. > As an Apple customer I value these things pretty highly, more than I value any one app. Then you're free to not enable sideloading when it eventually inevitably materializes, and miss out on apps that aren't available on the app store. This decision is still yours to make. We've had this on Android and macOS since forever.
    - a-user-you-like 3y ago
      So you’re advocating freedom for you and coercion for others. You’re free to buy an Android, no one’s forcing you to do anything. Free not to buy Apple. But you won’t extend that to others, forcing them to bow to your demands or lose their freedom to conduct trade.
      - grishka 3y ago
        Where did you see coercion? MacOS offers both options. You and I both know how popular the Mac app store is among both users and developers. I'm sure there are people who use a Mac and would not install anything from outside of the app store out of principle. It's their right to do so.
        a-user-you-like 3y ago
        MacOS offers others because Apple wants to. They could lock it down, they’re free to. But they would lose customers. But they’re free and you’re free.
  - shuckles 3y ago
    They also write and maintain the primary frameworks by which one creates software on their devices, a set of tools that help developers create apps far better than any competing mobile operating system. These frameworks are available for all developers to use for free! I propose Apple start charging some pennies for every million UIView calls.
    - grishka 3y ago
      What is the price of devices for then? It's a sane expectation that when you buy a device with a preinstalled OS, you pay for both the hardware and the R&D costs for the OS.
      - shuckles 3y ago
        Apple sets prices and there’s no reason they need to charge customers for the R&D costs of supporting public APIs. In fact, if they charged developers per call, maybe customers could pay less. It used to be pretty standard to charge for better application development frameworks. Heck, people used to pay for compilers!
        grishka 3y ago
        I remember how Microsoft wanted non-insignificant amounts of money for its official SDKs and Visual Studio (and I always pirated them). But Apple always offered Xcode for free and, iirc, some Macs even came with an Xcode installation CD in the box. But major macOS updates were also paid back then. But the version that came with your computer out of the box was still free. So no, I feel like "we need the $99/year and the 30% to support the R&D cost of our APIs" is a mostly made-up excuse. It's not like Apple would operate at loss if they remove the $99 and 30% fees tomorrow.
        shuckles 3y ago
        Companies set prices however they want, not based on "need". They don't need excuses.
- martimarkov 3y ago
  I have bought an iPhone and not your app. You have no relationship with me without me choosing iOS. That’s it. I’m your user and I want to get my apps from the App Store. Respect that decision. Don’t make me go outside the ecosystem I have chosen so you can make you 30%. I say that as a developer who gets charged the 30% as I respect the fact the user decided to use that specific platform for whatever reason they have. Mine as a consumer is that Apple doesn’t have dark patters when I want to cancel my subscription with your app. When I try to cancel my membership for something else like a magazine or the gym I have to go over 10 steps…
  - grishka 3y ago
    > I’m your user and I want to get my apps from the App Store Then you're not my user. And I'm not talking about anything involving money anyway. > When I try to cancel my membership for something else like a magazine or the gym I have to go over 10 steps… It's the government's job to enforce consumer rights, not Apple's. I'm sorry that consumer protection in the US is so terrible. Where I'm from, "credit card on file" is just not a thing and most of everything is prepaid. If a service really insists on charging you against your will, you can block your card and get a new one but I've yet to hear about this actually happening to someone.
- thereisnojesus 3y ago
  There was a time when people would give up their job if they truly believed in what they preached. But you like your work (or money) enough to not make a choice to change
  - thereisnojesus 3y ago
    [flagged]
- hotnfresh 3y ago
  I would be very surprised if someone could demonstrate that the reason Apple’s platform is more valuable to developers than Android doesn’t have quite a bit to do with things Apple has done, and continues to do.
addicted 3y ago
> You are not guaranteed a right to install a Windows app on your iPhone, or iPhone apps on Windows. This is a complete red herring and a very sly one at that. Sure, MS have no obligation to make it so that Safari can run on Windows. However, Microsoft also cannot stop Apple from building a version of Safari that runs on Windows. Or iTunes on Windows. And when Apple built iTunes on Windows MS had no right to force them to fork over 30% of every song they sold within iTunes to MS. MS had no right to force Mozilla to build Firefox around the IE6 engine, or Chrome around IE6. It’s very likely Apple, Google, or Mozilla would not have existed if governments (specifically the EU) hadn’t stopped Microsoft from pushing it’s options as the default, never mind blocking alternatives altogether.
- josephg 3y ago
  Yep. Microsoft also hasn’t banned Steam from windows, forcing everyone to buy games from their own official windows App Store where they take a juicy cut of all sales. Microsoft also doesn’t charge a ransom fee for 3rd party applications to use the hardware features of my computer, that I’ve already paid for. Apple does this with the NFC chip in iPhones - public transit companies the world over need to pay Apple money to use the nfc chip present in iPhones to pay for transit.
- a-user-you-like 3y ago
  You seem to have high opinions about what others don’t have the right to do with software they invest their own money into. Here’s an idea, let’s drop the coercion and let free men make free choices.
  - tristan957 3y ago
    > choices What choices might those be? The only other mobile operating system that people develop for is Android. How is a duopoly choice?
malermeister 3y ago
> There is no rule that consumers have a right to do anything. But there is, in the EU. That's what this whole thread is about. Like it or leave it, our market, our rules.

grishka 3y ago

But as an app developer, I have no choice, Apple will act like they own my relationship with my users despite having done absolutely nothing for it.

davidham 3y ago
Nothing? They provide and run the marketplace that distributes your app anywhere in the world, and handles nearly frictionless payment. And they have created a marketplace where users feel safe downloading your app. As an Apple customer I value these things pretty highly, more than I value any one app.
- grishka 3y ago
  > They provide and run the marketplace that distributes your app anywhere in the world It's nice that they provide that service for those developers that want it. It's not nice that I don't have a choice to distribute my own app however I see fit. See, I want to build an app, and people want to install it, but Apple is standing between us, dictating how we must and must not interact. > As an Apple customer I value these things pretty highly, more than I value any one app. Then you're free to not enable sideloading when it eventually inevitably materializes, and miss out on apps that aren't available on the app store. This decision is still yours to make. We've had this on Android and macOS since forever.
  - a-user-you-like 3y ago
    So you’re advocating freedom for you and coercion for others. You’re free to buy an Android, no one’s forcing you to do anything. Free not to buy Apple. But you won’t extend that to others, forcing them to bow to your demands or lose their freedom to conduct trade.
    - grishka 3y ago
      Where did you see coercion? MacOS offers both options. You and I both know how popular the Mac app store is among both users and developers. I'm sure there are people who use a Mac and would not install anything from outside of the app store out of principle. It's their right to do so.
      - a-user-you-like 3y ago
        MacOS offers others because Apple wants to. They could lock it down, they’re free to. But they would lose customers. But they’re free and you’re free.
- shuckles 3y ago
  They also write and maintain the primary frameworks by which one creates software on their devices, a set of tools that help developers create apps far better than any competing mobile operating system. These frameworks are available for all developers to use for free! I propose Apple start charging some pennies for every million UIView calls.
  - grishka 3y ago
    What is the price of devices for then? It's a sane expectation that when you buy a device with a preinstalled OS, you pay for both the hardware and the R&D costs for the OS.
    - shuckles 3y ago
      Apple sets prices and there’s no reason they need to charge customers for the R&D costs of supporting public APIs. In fact, if they charged developers per call, maybe customers could pay less. It used to be pretty standard to charge for better application development frameworks. Heck, people used to pay for compilers!
      - grishka 3y ago
        I remember how Microsoft wanted non-insignificant amounts of money for its official SDKs and Visual Studio (and I always pirated them). But Apple always offered Xcode for free and, iirc, some Macs even came with an Xcode installation CD in the box. But major macOS updates were also paid back then. But the version that came with your computer out of the box was still free. So no, I feel like "we need the $99/year and the 30% to support the R&D cost of our APIs" is a mostly made-up excuse. It's not like Apple would operate at loss if they remove the $99 and 30% fees tomorrow.
        shuckles 3y ago
        Companies set prices however they want, not based on "need". They don't need excuses.
martimarkov 3y ago
I have bought an iPhone and not your app. You have no relationship with me without me choosing iOS. That’s it. I’m your user and I want to get my apps from the App Store. Respect that decision. Don’t make me go outside the ecosystem I have chosen so you can make you 30%. I say that as a developer who gets charged the 30% as I respect the fact the user decided to use that specific platform for whatever reason they have. Mine as a consumer is that Apple doesn’t have dark patters when I want to cancel my subscription with your app. When I try to cancel my membership for something else like a magazine or the gym I have to go over 10 steps…
- grishka 3y ago
  > I’m your user and I want to get my apps from the App Store Then you're not my user. And I'm not talking about anything involving money anyway. > When I try to cancel my membership for something else like a magazine or the gym I have to go over 10 steps… It's the government's job to enforce consumer rights, not Apple's. I'm sorry that consumer protection in the US is so terrible. Where I'm from, "credit card on file" is just not a thing and most of everything is prepaid. If a service really insists on charging you against your will, you can block your card and get a new one but I've yet to hear about this actually happening to someone.
thereisnojesus 3y ago
There was a time when people would give up their job if they truly believed in what they preached. But you like your work (or money) enough to not make a choice to change
- thereisnojesus 3y ago
  [flagged]
hotnfresh 3y ago
I would be very surprised if someone could demonstrate that the reason Apple’s platform is more valuable to developers than Android doesn’t have quite a bit to do with things Apple has done, and continues to do.

addicted 3y ago

> You are not guaranteed a right to install a Windows app on your iPhone, or iPhone apps on Windows. This is a complete red herring and a very sly one at that. Sure, MS have no obligation to make it so that Safari can run on Windows. However, Microsoft also cannot stop Apple from building a version of Safari that runs on Windows. Or iTunes on Windows. And when Apple built iTunes on Windows MS had no right to force them to fork over 30% of every song they sold within iTunes to MS. MS had no right to force Mozilla to build Firefox around the IE6 engine, or Chrome around IE6. It’s very likely Apple, Google, or Mozilla would not have existed if governments (specifically the EU) hadn’t stopped Microsoft from pushing it’s options as the default, never mind blocking alternatives altogether.

josephg 3y ago
Yep. Microsoft also hasn’t banned Steam from windows, forcing everyone to buy games from their own official windows App Store where they take a juicy cut of all sales. Microsoft also doesn’t charge a ransom fee for 3rd party applications to use the hardware features of my computer, that I’ve already paid for. Apple does this with the NFC chip in iPhones - public transit companies the world over need to pay Apple money to use the nfc chip present in iPhones to pay for transit.
a-user-you-like 3y ago
You seem to have high opinions about what others don’t have the right to do with software they invest their own money into. Here’s an idea, let’s drop the coercion and let free men make free choices.
- tristan957 3y ago
  > choices What choices might those be? The only other mobile operating system that people develop for is Android. How is a duopoly choice?

malermeister 3y ago

> There is no rule that consumers have a right to do anything. But there is, in the EU. That's what this whole thread is about. Like it or leave it, our market, our rules.