8 ms·

It's not about personal choices, it's about enabling fair competition. If you sell a general-purpose computing device and market it as one, you should relinquis

It's not about personal choices, it's about enabling fair competition. If you sell a general-purpose computing device and market it as one, you should relinquish any control of it once it's sold.

sbuk 3y ago
Who decided the iPhone is a general-purpose computing device?
- grishka 3y ago
  Apple did, with their marketing.
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  Apple did for iPads: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S5BLs51yDQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S5BLs51yDQ https://9to5mac.com/2017/11/16/ipad-pro-whats-a-computer-ad/ https://9to5mac.com/2017/11/16/ipad-pro-whats-a-computer-ad/
  - nouveaux 3y ago
    I have a different take on the ad. The ad is saying that computer is the obsolete experience, not that the iPad can do everything a computer can do. If Apple truely believed that, they would not have a mac line up. For a certain demographic of people, I would agree. I continue to push the iPad for my aging parents because it can do what they need to do without my tech support. They don't need all the flexibility of a computer as a general purpose computing device. They just need to browse the web, write emails and watch videos, and the iPad is perfect for them.
  - chmod775 3y ago
    Obligatory: https://youtu.be/jCb-WcxO5SU?t=52 https://youtu.be/jCb-WcxO5SU?t=52
  - shuckles 3y ago
    That ad says literally the opposite of what you claim: the iPad is NOT a computer.
    - Apocryphon 3y ago
      Correct, because it fulfills the ability to generally compute despite not being a computer. It is an evolutionary replacement.
      - shuckles 3y ago
        You are reading text that is not present in the ad.
        Apocryphon 3y ago
        I am reading the subtext. Pray I don’t read it further.
        shuckles 3y ago
        Are you threatening me with more evidence that your close text readings are bogus?
        Apocryphon 3y ago
        Please, I do not threaten; I promise.
        shuckles 3y ago
        Huh? I don’t see any further close readings. Empty promises.
        Apocryphon 3y ago
        Looks like you need to learn how to read text that is not present in my post.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  The EU did, by qualifying Apple as a services gatekeeper on iPhone: 1. An undertaking shall be designated as a gatekeeper if: (a) it has a significant impact on the internal market; (b) it provides a core platform service which is an important gateway for business users to reach end users; and (c) it enjoys an entrenched and durable position, in its operations, or it is foreseeable that it will enjoy such a position in the near future. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32022R1925 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...
  - sbuk 3y ago
    None of those indicates whether a device is a general-purpose computer.
- kibwen 3y ago
  Everything that I purchase that contains a CPU should be within my power to run arbitrary code upon. Seriously, what site are we even on right now?
  - labcomputer 3y ago
    The very same site where a significant number of users argue, completely seriously, that game consoles are not general purpose computing devices and, as such, should not be subject to the same rules.
    - grishka 3y ago
      I'd define the "general purposeness" by the public availability of an official SDK. Video game consoles are strange because there's no agreement whether they are appliances or not. Most of them also have unofficial public SDKs. Heck, some people would even say that routers are general purpose computing devices and install a custom OS on theirs.
      - wpm 3y ago
        Apple's SDKs are "public" in the sense that you can go read them, but if you want to ship anything with them on iOS, you need a paid developer account, right? I wouldn't call that public.
  - sircastor 3y ago
    Given the context, I’m guessing what you want is to run arbitrary code on an OS that manages the battery, the network, the display, audio in and out, provide a security apparatus... You want all of the benefits of the well-managed, walled garden. Or did you mean just running ARM Assembly?
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      > I’m guessing what you want is to run arbitrary code on an OS that manages the battery, the network, the display, audio in and out, provide a security apparatus... You want all of the benefits of the well-managed, walled garden. ...or a sufficently advanced browser :p (and people wonder why MacOS is loaded with lazy Electron ports...) Distributing software should be free, ignoring the cost of transmitting the information and storing it on the client. Apple's pricing is arbitrary, and their defense of it is unsubstantiated. Forcing the App Store to compete is the only natural step forward for Apple, whether they (or their shareholders) want to admit it or not.
- CamperBob2 3y ago
  Guy named Turing. It was a while back, though.
- sircastor 3y ago
  It can be argued (I think effectively) that we don’t know how to make non-general purpose computers. We can kind of fake it by putting blocking software in the way, but you can’t have math that only works when the data isn’t copyrighted.
quickco 3y ago
> If you sell a general-purpose computing device and market it as one, you should relinquish any control of it once it's sold. The freedoms we have, and the freedom that should be protected is market choice to buy or not buy any consumer product. If you don’t like Apple, don’t buy its products and purchase a device from a large number of competitors. It is really that simple. There is no rule that consumers have a right to do anything. You are not guaranteed a right to install a Windows app on your iPhone, or iPhone apps on Windows. You aren’t guaranteed that your coffee machine can run Python.
- grishka 3y ago
  But as an app developer, I have no choice, Apple will act like they own my relationship with my users despite having done absolutely nothing for it.
  - davidham 3y ago
    Nothing? They provide and run the marketplace that distributes your app anywhere in the world, and handles nearly frictionless payment. And they have created a marketplace where users feel safe downloading your app. As an Apple customer I value these things pretty highly, more than I value any one app.
    - grishka 3y ago
      > They provide and run the marketplace that distributes your app anywhere in the world It's nice that they provide that service for those developers that want it. It's not nice that I don't have a choice to distribute my own app however I see fit. See, I want to build an app, and people want to install it, but Apple is standing between us, dictating how we must and must not interact. > As an Apple customer I value these things pretty highly, more than I value any one app. Then you're free to not enable sideloading when it eventually inevitably materializes, and miss out on apps that aren't available on the app store. This decision is still yours to make. We've had this on Android and macOS since forever.
      - 3y ago
kajumix 3y ago
Competition is the natural state of affairs. Nobody has to enable it. IBM/Microsoft weren't forced by the EU to give up market dominance in PCs. And if the EU tried, it couldn't ever do a better job than Apple did. It's no surprise that EU lags so much behind the US in tech innovation.
- rnk 3y ago
  Actually the web browser is exactly one of the things that microsoft had to change to reduce their enforced market dominance. They made microsoft stop forcing IE down everyone's throat. It's eerie how similar the iphone browser situation paralllels that.
- grishka 3y ago
  > Nobody has to enable it. OS and device vendors forcibly inserting themselves between developers and users like Apple does is unprecedented. Because Apple has a literal technological supremacy over most of the humanity (since iOS devices use secure boot that can't be disabled and relies on keys burned into silicon that you can't change because you lack the technology to do so), regulation needs to happen to enable fair competition among iOS apps. In other words, no one needed to enable competition when adversarial interoperability was possible. It is not possible on iOS devices because of combination of secure boot and code signing policies.
- kibwen 3y ago
  > Competition is the natural state of affairs. This is not even remotely true. Economies of scale mean that power accumulates and monopolies emerge, and monopolies are the antithesis of competition. In order to ensure competition, you need regulation to shake the jar regularly.
  - ggreer 3y ago
    How is Apple a monopoly? iPhones are less than 20% of phones sold in the world. Samsung sells more phones than Apple.
    - 3y ago
a-user-you-like 3y ago
You’re advocating for freedom for you and coercion for someone else. These double standards are immoral. You are not coerced into buying anything, but see nice hardware and your greed gets the best of you.

It's not about personal choices, it's about enabling fair competition. If you sell a general-purpose computing device and market it as one, you should relinquish any control of it once it's sold.

sbuk 3y ago

Who decided the iPhone is a general-purpose computing device?

grishka 3y ago
Apple did, with their marketing.
Apocryphon 3y ago
Apple did for iPads: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S5BLs51yDQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S5BLs51yDQ https://9to5mac.com/2017/11/16/ipad-pro-whats-a-computer-ad/ https://9to5mac.com/2017/11/16/ipad-pro-whats-a-computer-ad/
- nouveaux 3y ago
  I have a different take on the ad. The ad is saying that computer is the obsolete experience, not that the iPad can do everything a computer can do. If Apple truely believed that, they would not have a mac line up. For a certain demographic of people, I would agree. I continue to push the iPad for my aging parents because it can do what they need to do without my tech support. They don't need all the flexibility of a computer as a general purpose computing device. They just need to browse the web, write emails and watch videos, and the iPad is perfect for them.
- chmod775 3y ago
  Obligatory: https://youtu.be/jCb-WcxO5SU?t=52 https://youtu.be/jCb-WcxO5SU?t=52
- shuckles 3y ago
  That ad says literally the opposite of what you claim: the iPad is NOT a computer.
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    Correct, because it fulfills the ability to generally compute despite not being a computer. It is an evolutionary replacement.
    - shuckles 3y ago
      You are reading text that is not present in the ad.
      - Apocryphon 3y ago
        I am reading the subtext. Pray I don’t read it further.
        shuckles 3y ago
        Are you threatening me with more evidence that your close text readings are bogus?
        Apocryphon 3y ago
        Please, I do not threaten; I promise.
        shuckles 3y ago
        Huh? I don’t see any further close readings. Empty promises.
        Apocryphon 3y ago
        Looks like you need to learn how to read text that is not present in my post.
smoldesu 3y ago
The EU did, by qualifying Apple as a services gatekeeper on iPhone: 1. An undertaking shall be designated as a gatekeeper if: (a) it has a significant impact on the internal market; (b) it provides a core platform service which is an important gateway for business users to reach end users; and (c) it enjoys an entrenched and durable position, in its operations, or it is foreseeable that it will enjoy such a position in the near future. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32022R1925 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...
- sbuk 3y ago
  None of those indicates whether a device is a general-purpose computer.
kibwen 3y ago
Everything that I purchase that contains a CPU should be within my power to run arbitrary code upon. Seriously, what site are we even on right now?
- labcomputer 3y ago
  The very same site where a significant number of users argue, completely seriously, that game consoles are not general purpose computing devices and, as such, should not be subject to the same rules.
  - grishka 3y ago
    I'd define the "general purposeness" by the public availability of an official SDK. Video game consoles are strange because there's no agreement whether they are appliances or not. Most of them also have unofficial public SDKs. Heck, some people would even say that routers are general purpose computing devices and install a custom OS on theirs.
    - wpm 3y ago
      Apple's SDKs are "public" in the sense that you can go read them, but if you want to ship anything with them on iOS, you need a paid developer account, right? I wouldn't call that public.
- sircastor 3y ago
  Given the context, I’m guessing what you want is to run arbitrary code on an OS that manages the battery, the network, the display, audio in and out, provide a security apparatus... You want all of the benefits of the well-managed, walled garden. Or did you mean just running ARM Assembly?
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    > I’m guessing what you want is to run arbitrary code on an OS that manages the battery, the network, the display, audio in and out, provide a security apparatus... You want all of the benefits of the well-managed, walled garden. ...or a sufficently advanced browser :p (and people wonder why MacOS is loaded with lazy Electron ports...) Distributing software should be free, ignoring the cost of transmitting the information and storing it on the client. Apple's pricing is arbitrary, and their defense of it is unsubstantiated. Forcing the App Store to compete is the only natural step forward for Apple, whether they (or their shareholders) want to admit it or not.
CamperBob2 3y ago
Guy named Turing. It was a while back, though.
sircastor 3y ago
It can be argued (I think effectively) that we don’t know how to make non-general purpose computers. We can kind of fake it by putting blocking software in the way, but you can’t have math that only works when the data isn’t copyrighted.

quickco 3y ago

> If you sell a general-purpose computing device and market it as one, you should relinquish any control of it once it's sold. The freedoms we have, and the freedom that should be protected is market choice to buy or not buy any consumer product. If you don’t like Apple, don’t buy its products and purchase a device from a large number of competitors. It is really that simple. There is no rule that consumers have a right to do anything. You are not guaranteed a right to install a Windows app on your iPhone, or iPhone apps on Windows. You aren’t guaranteed that your coffee machine can run Python.

grishka 3y ago
But as an app developer, I have no choice, Apple will act like they own my relationship with my users despite having done absolutely nothing for it.
- davidham 3y ago
  Nothing? They provide and run the marketplace that distributes your app anywhere in the world, and handles nearly frictionless payment. And they have created a marketplace where users feel safe downloading your app. As an Apple customer I value these things pretty highly, more than I value any one app.
  - grishka 3y ago
    > They provide and run the marketplace that distributes your app anywhere in the world It's nice that they provide that service for those developers that want it. It's not nice that I don't have a choice to distribute my own app however I see fit. See, I want to build an app, and people want to install it, but Apple is standing between us, dictating how we must and must not interact. > As an Apple customer I value these things pretty highly, more than I value any one app. Then you're free to not enable sideloading when it eventually inevitably materializes, and miss out on apps that aren't available on the app store. This decision is still yours to make. We've had this on Android and macOS since forever.
    - 3y ago

kajumix 3y ago

Competition is the natural state of affairs. Nobody has to enable it. IBM/Microsoft weren't forced by the EU to give up market dominance in PCs. And if the EU tried, it couldn't ever do a better job than Apple did. It's no surprise that EU lags so much behind the US in tech innovation.

rnk 3y ago
Actually the web browser is exactly one of the things that microsoft had to change to reduce their enforced market dominance. They made microsoft stop forcing IE down everyone's throat. It's eerie how similar the iphone browser situation paralllels that.
grishka 3y ago
> Nobody has to enable it. OS and device vendors forcibly inserting themselves between developers and users like Apple does is unprecedented. Because Apple has a literal technological supremacy over most of the humanity (since iOS devices use secure boot that can't be disabled and relies on keys burned into silicon that you can't change because you lack the technology to do so), regulation needs to happen to enable fair competition among iOS apps. In other words, no one needed to enable competition when adversarial interoperability was possible. It is not possible on iOS devices because of combination of secure boot and code signing policies.
kibwen 3y ago
> Competition is the natural state of affairs. This is not even remotely true. Economies of scale mean that power accumulates and monopolies emerge, and monopolies are the antithesis of competition. In order to ensure competition, you need regulation to shake the jar regularly.
- ggreer 3y ago
  How is Apple a monopoly? iPhones are less than 20% of phones sold in the world. Samsung sells more phones than Apple.
  - 3y ago

a-user-you-like 3y ago

You’re advocating for freedom for you and coercion for someone else. These double standards are immoral. You are not coerced into buying anything, but see nice hardware and your greed gets the best of you.