7 ms·

Yes, the Homebrew message does seem unnecessarily hostile. Not everyone can afford to buy a brand new computer every year.

by oxonia 3y ago

Condition1952 3y ago
Those peasants are bound to suffer the wrath of planned obsolescence. macOS could be a modular rolling release, but you need to milk the peasants from time to time
dgacmu 3y ago
This seems a little exaggerated? Macos 12 will run on most Macs from 2015 and later. 8 year old hardware isn't Earth shattering, but it's also not a "hostile" period of time for a non-commercial open source project to support. And it's certainly not "new hardware every year".
- WillPostForFood 3y ago
  The "period of time" isn't what was hostile.
  - Uehreka 3y ago
    Edit: nevermind
musicale 3y ago
I wish there were a macOS (and Homebrew) "extended support" edition with security patches for 10 years rather than 7. Old Macs are often perfectly usable in terms of hardware, but macOS security updates have left them behind. As of today, it's likely that the 2016 Mac I'm writing this on (which can run Monterey but not Ventura or Sonoma) is out of support. Of course the Mac apocalypse will be when x86 support is dropped, possibly starting in the next macOS release.
- mrpippy 3y ago
  If the expected pattern holds, macOS Monterey will be getting security updates for another year.
- MilaM 3y ago
  Completely agree. I have two perfectly good but now unsupported 5K iMacs from 2015 and 2017 in my household, both don't get any more upgrades. Heck, I would even pay up to 100 EUR/USD for longer support. But that's probably not a viable business case for Apple anymore.
  - walteweiss 3y ago
    Have you tried to install some Linux distro (like Fedora or Ubuntu) on it? If your workflow allows it, of course. I found how well Linux works on my relatively old Apple hardware. And I can use it most of the time, just need to learn some new tools, as many I’m familiar with are macOS only.
    - MilaM 3y ago
      I know my way around Linux, as a server OS at least. The issue with switching is more about my previous investment in buying and learning dozens of third-party apps. I also must say that I value the integration between macOS and iOS a lot. Once my (i)Macs stop receiving security updates though, I might try a Linux distro, just to give them a second life.
  - breakfastduck 3y ago
    Have you explored https://github.com/dortania/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher https://github.com/dortania/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher? I have used it before and, in my experience and everyone else I know who has used it, the vast majority of time the newer versions run absolutely fine with no issues. Occasionally some newer features don't work, but I'd but confident that 2015/2017 iMacs would be able to run the latest version no problem.
    - MilaM 3y ago
travisjungroth 3y ago
One of the problems with OSS burnout is this many-to-one relationship with the users and maintainer. It’s sort of like the relationship between an outfielder and the bleacher crowd at a baseball game. Maintainers get requests to do things they have no interest in, like maintaining software for OSes past a certain date. That doesn’t sound so bad, but there are a lot, and they can even be mean. The maintainer can block these users individually, but it’s different users all the time, so that doesn’t stop it. So, the maintainer addresses the user base, the whole crowd all at once. The problem is most of these users haven’t seen these interactions, so the message seems hostile. Having someone say “I owe you nothing.” seems really weird when you’ve never asked them for anything. Or, if they list of all the ways and reasons for you to not contact them it looks hostile. The users don’t see the fan next to them throwing a beer can at the center fielder.
- KennyBlanken 3y ago
  It's not burnout. The homebrew team have been insufferable and egotistical for a long time. Max Howell (founder of homebrew) went to interview at Google, shoved a coding exercise back in their faces, made a snotty comment about how all the engineers at Google using Macs use his code and how dare they blah blah greatest engineer in the world blah blah, and walked out the door. That coding exercise was likely given to him precisely because all the google engineers had a lot of experience using brew, or they did it as ego check to see if he'd be insufferable to work with. Howell failed to realize that and instead went and bragged about it on twitter, almost certainly confirming for the hiring committee that things had worked exactly as designed. Whole lot of fucking sass from a man who either didn't care or didn't know about the security implications of making a directory in the default path user-writeable, thus making probably hundreds of thousands of developer's systems less secure: https://infotoast.org/site/index.php/2021/05/30/homebrew-is-a-major-security-flaw-install-macports-instead/ https://infotoast.org/site/index.php/2021/05/30/homebrew-is-...
  - johnsea 3y ago
    I am glad that there are people like Max Howell who write such (for me) great package managers. In opposite to what you write, here in a quote reply he comes across as very friendly: https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-logic-behind-Google-rejecting-Max-Howell-the-author-of-Homebrew-for-not-being-able-to-invert-a-binary-tree?share=1 https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-logic-behind-Google-rejectin... PS: if really a lot of Googlers use brew I hope they also generously support the project (do. Apple)
rimliu 3y ago
Not everyone can afford supporting old OSes.

Yes, the Homebrew message does seem unnecessarily hostile. Not everyone can afford to buy a brand new computer every year.

by oxonia 3y ago

Yes, the Homebrew message does seem unnecessarily hostile. Not everyone can afford to buy a brand new computer every year.

Condition1952 3y ago

Those peasants are bound to suffer the wrath of planned obsolescence. macOS could be a modular rolling release, but you need to milk the peasants from time to time

dgacmu 3y ago

This seems a little exaggerated? Macos 12 will run on most Macs from 2015 and later. 8 year old hardware isn't Earth shattering, but it's also not a "hostile" period of time for a non-commercial open source project to support. And it's certainly not "new hardware every year".

WillPostForFood 3y ago
The "period of time" isn't what was hostile.
- Uehreka 3y ago
  Edit: nevermind

musicale 3y ago

I wish there were a macOS (and Homebrew) "extended support" edition with security patches for 10 years rather than 7. Old Macs are often perfectly usable in terms of hardware, but macOS security updates have left them behind. As of today, it's likely that the 2016 Mac I'm writing this on (which can run Monterey but not Ventura or Sonoma) is out of support. Of course the Mac apocalypse will be when x86 support is dropped, possibly starting in the next macOS release.

mrpippy 3y ago
If the expected pattern holds, macOS Monterey will be getting security updates for another year.
MilaM 3y ago
Completely agree. I have two perfectly good but now unsupported 5K iMacs from 2015 and 2017 in my household, both don't get any more upgrades. Heck, I would even pay up to 100 EUR/USD for longer support. But that's probably not a viable business case for Apple anymore.
- walteweiss 3y ago
  Have you tried to install some Linux distro (like Fedora or Ubuntu) on it? If your workflow allows it, of course. I found how well Linux works on my relatively old Apple hardware. And I can use it most of the time, just need to learn some new tools, as many I’m familiar with are macOS only.
  - MilaM 3y ago
    I know my way around Linux, as a server OS at least. The issue with switching is more about my previous investment in buying and learning dozens of third-party apps. I also must say that I value the integration between macOS and iOS a lot. Once my (i)Macs stop receiving security updates though, I might try a Linux distro, just to give them a second life.
- breakfastduck 3y ago
  Have you explored https://github.com/dortania/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher https://github.com/dortania/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher? I have used it before and, in my experience and everyone else I know who has used it, the vast majority of time the newer versions run absolutely fine with no issues. Occasionally some newer features don't work, but I'd but confident that 2015/2017 iMacs would be able to run the latest version no problem.
  - MilaM 3y ago

travisjungroth 3y ago

One of the problems with OSS burnout is this many-to-one relationship with the users and maintainer. It’s sort of like the relationship between an outfielder and the bleacher crowd at a baseball game. Maintainers get requests to do things they have no interest in, like maintaining software for OSes past a certain date. That doesn’t sound so bad, but there are a lot, and they can even be mean. The maintainer can block these users individually, but it’s different users all the time, so that doesn’t stop it. So, the maintainer addresses the user base, the whole crowd all at once. The problem is most of these users haven’t seen these interactions, so the message seems hostile. Having someone say “I owe you nothing.” seems really weird when you’ve never asked them for anything. Or, if they list of all the ways and reasons for you to not contact them it looks hostile. The users don’t see the fan next to them throwing a beer can at the center fielder.

KennyBlanken 3y ago
It's not burnout. The homebrew team have been insufferable and egotistical for a long time. Max Howell (founder of homebrew) went to interview at Google, shoved a coding exercise back in their faces, made a snotty comment about how all the engineers at Google using Macs use his code and how dare they blah blah greatest engineer in the world blah blah, and walked out the door. That coding exercise was likely given to him precisely because all the google engineers had a lot of experience using brew, or they did it as ego check to see if he'd be insufferable to work with. Howell failed to realize that and instead went and bragged about it on twitter, almost certainly confirming for the hiring committee that things had worked exactly as designed. Whole lot of fucking sass from a man who either didn't care or didn't know about the security implications of making a directory in the default path user-writeable, thus making probably hundreds of thousands of developer's systems less secure: https://infotoast.org/site/index.php/2021/05/30/homebrew-is-a-major-security-flaw-install-macports-instead/ https://infotoast.org/site/index.php/2021/05/30/homebrew-is-...
- johnsea 3y ago
  I am glad that there are people like Max Howell who write such (for me) great package managers. In opposite to what you write, here in a quote reply he comes across as very friendly: https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-logic-behind-Google-rejecting-Max-Howell-the-author-of-Homebrew-for-not-being-able-to-invert-a-binary-tree?share=1 https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-logic-behind-Google-rejectin... PS: if really a lot of Googlers use brew I hope they also generously support the project (do. Apple)

rimliu 3y ago

Not everyone can afford supporting old OSes.