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How Much Are Games Like Factorio Sapping The Intellectual Potential Of Humanity?

20 points by optimalsolver 3y ago

MassiveBonk51 3y ago
Probably less than most ad tech or generic SaaS companies.
throwaway81523 3y ago
No idea about Factorio but they used to say that about chess as well.
extraduder_ire 3y ago
In a comment thread with a lot of links to xkcd, I'm surprised I didn't see this one: https://xkcd.com/1414/ https://xkcd.com/1414/ - Writing Skills I think it's the most apt.
jayturley 3y ago
I'm guessing since many jobs don't let people use their intellectual capacity anyway (think service/retail/food), not much.
afloyd 3y ago
Its not like brainpower is a finite resource, the more you work your brain the better it works anyways. You cant expect "obsessive tinkerer types who've historically driven scientific and engineering progress" to work 24/7 on their work.
meristohm 3y ago
For those of us who find these games too compelling (myself included), it's a problem. However, as the top content of that post at the time I read it said, play is a way to gain intuitive understanding of systems. However, the utility depends on the system. I'm "playing" the iNaturalist Seek app much like I played Pokémon Go (for a few weeks back then, anyway), except the content is more interesting and relevant (I now know so much more about familiar "background" plants) and there are sufficiently few hooks in the exercise to prevent me from compulsively spending a lot of money traveling around to photograph plants and animals. Incidentally, this tendency of ours to catalog everything and pollute the world reminds me of the Judge in Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy, and with that in mind I make time to appreciate the life around me with minimal disturbance.
nine_zeros 3y ago
You want to know a bigger drain on intellectual potential? It is asking hundreds of thousands of engineers to practice leetcode for tech interviews, doing things that are inconsequential to the actual work.
- musicale 3y ago
  I think leetcode is a fairly brainy and fun game aimed at programmers, but as you note leetcode-style algorithm puzzles are only tangentially related to the work you might actually do at one of these companies. And the fact that you have to grind it for employment makes it less fun. Maybe slightly better than making candidates do chess puzzles or solve Rubik's Cubes though.
jauntywundrkind 3y ago
I'm so so so glad Clay Shirky gave me this idea of thinking of where human potential gets channeled. I think the notion was out before this article (in talks), but here's one from 2008, Gin, Television, and Social Surplus, that says it well enough. "http://web.archive.org/web/20080708220257/http://www.shirky.com/herecomeseverybody/2008/04/looking-for-the-mouse.html http://web.archive.org/web/20080708220257/http://www.shirky.... There's a gradient here of interactivity. Gilligan's Island was almost purely passive; broadcast television, albeit yes it was a social phenomenon we'd talk about at the office or with friends. On the other end, there was this kind of idolized view that the online world was a receptacle for interactivity, that we could all be actively engaged. Oh, look at the wikipedia discourse around deciding what to do about the no-longer-a-planet Pluto. A mass of people deciding how to update the article. Wikipedia was a sink for engagement, and some of that was a productive use of human surplus. It idealized the tale, because so much wikipedia usage is passive, but even then: it's self directed, enriching. An available use of human capacity that seems so vastly much better than watching Gilligans Island. In some ways, things like Factorio are much more like Gilligan's Island than using (activley or passively) Wikipedia. Are the same kind of broadcast programming. But I still think there's a kind of mental engagement here that's different, that's better than where we were. Clicking the mouse is engagement, if not productive engagement, in a way that's different to me from receivership. The brain may be doing useless loops, but it's still an active participant. Being sharp doesn't innately count for anything, but I think that allure of places to reward the brain for being sharp count for something, that they suggest the value & reward of using one's potential. And I think that keeps many from being dull, from rusting out into lower potentials. I think it encodes the positive value system of trying.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
kbelder 3y ago
How much lifting are dumbbells sapping the world of?
- deafpolygon 3y ago
  Much less than you think. I'm no weightlifter, but it is a physical activity that does wonders for your brain function.
tomlockwood 3y ago
Ok but more serious question: How many PhDs are working on making advertising?
iancmceachern 3y ago
I think it's the other way around. Much of my early computer education was learned because I wanted to play games and my parents didn't know how to make them work. Making boot disks, etc. was a big part of my early exposure to computers. I played a lot of original Sim city, among other things, and organically over time I had devised , as a kid, a whole elaborate saving and naming system for my cities that involved versions and forking. Later, as an engineer in regulated industries, I've realized that what I built as a kid was a (nearly) ISO compliant revision and document management system. Factorio is fine. I'm worried about first person shooters, I think games where there is less intellectual aspect to them and more twitch reactive reflex stuff there is the less "good" it is for the players soul, and development.
- deafpolygon 3y ago
  Saying Factorio is fine and saying you're worried about first person shooters is contradictory. First person shooters may well breed the next gen of fighter pilots or snipers. Or maybe they'll enhance someone's dadflex and save a child from incoming danger. If you say Factorio is fine, then you can't say anything else is any different.
  - iancmceachern 3y ago
    Because of the problem solving nature of its gameplay. It's like chess, or any other strategic game. There is a big argument that they teach us things. Just like team sports. It teaches us life skills. I argue that Factorio teaches more directly applicable life skills to the average person. Most jobs now involve solving some kind of problem using creativity and clicking/typing on a computer. Yes there are corner cases where it's nice to be a ninja. But most of us click and type on a computer all day solving problems a computer can't. First person shooters can be automated quite easily and have been, playing factorio, chess, etc. Are different. Yes they can still be automated, but it's clearly a higher bar.
    - deafpolygon 3y ago
      That's clearly a bias on your end. Factorio is no more of a problem-solving game than a first-person shooter is. There is a lot going on in a player's mind when playing FPS that may not be obvious, such as planning ahead, quick thinking and anticipating the opponents' movements. Those are also valuable skills that can be applied to many areas of life. Take Overwatch for example. There are role-based characters that fill a specific function in the game that require thinking, planning, and experience. It is also a team sport that teaches life skills. I do not see how automation can 'solve' that for you. It is not just purely finding the thing on the screen and clicking on it. They are not just solely twitch-based reactionary games. As with anything in life, too much chess/Factorio/etc. can also be detrimental. Balance is key.
deterministic 3y ago
How about the complete waste of engineers spending their career optimising ad revenues and attention grabbing? If Google or Facebook disappeared into a black hole tomorrow it would be inconvenient but we would all be fine. However if the people maintaining the electric grid or farms disappeared tomorrow most of us would not survive for long.
deterministic 3y ago
Sure let’s all stop having fun and instead work non-stop all the time to “maximise our potential”. Because that is what life is all about right? Surely nobody wants to “waste” their time enjoying themselves or having meaningful relationships right? Let’s all bow before the God of Productivity. May we all grind ourselves to death sacrificing our lives in the honour and glory of Productivity the Glorious. If you are having fun or enjoying yourself you are clearly not working hard enough. Shame on you!

20 points by optimalsolver 3y ago

MassiveBonk51 3y ago

Probably less than most ad tech or generic SaaS companies.

throwaway81523 3y ago

No idea about Factorio but they used to say that about chess as well.

extraduder_ire 3y ago

In a comment thread with a lot of links to xkcd, I'm surprised I didn't see this one: https://xkcd.com/1414/ https://xkcd.com/1414/ - Writing Skills I think it's the most apt.

jayturley 3y ago

I'm guessing since many jobs don't let people use their intellectual capacity anyway (think service/retail/food), not much.

afloyd 3y ago

Its not like brainpower is a finite resource, the more you work your brain the better it works anyways. You cant expect "obsessive tinkerer types who've historically driven scientific and engineering progress" to work 24/7 on their work.

meristohm 3y ago

For those of us who find these games too compelling (myself included), it's a problem. However, as the top content of that post at the time I read it said, play is a way to gain intuitive understanding of systems. However, the utility depends on the system. I'm "playing" the iNaturalist Seek app much like I played Pokémon Go (for a few weeks back then, anyway), except the content is more interesting and relevant (I now know so much more about familiar "background" plants) and there are sufficiently few hooks in the exercise to prevent me from compulsively spending a lot of money traveling around to photograph plants and animals. Incidentally, this tendency of ours to catalog everything and pollute the world reminds me of the Judge in Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy, and with that in mind I make time to appreciate the life around me with minimal disturbance.

nine_zeros 3y ago

You want to know a bigger drain on intellectual potential? It is asking hundreds of thousands of engineers to practice leetcode for tech interviews, doing things that are inconsequential to the actual work.

musicale 3y ago
I think leetcode is a fairly brainy and fun game aimed at programmers, but as you note leetcode-style algorithm puzzles are only tangentially related to the work you might actually do at one of these companies. And the fact that you have to grind it for employment makes it less fun. Maybe slightly better than making candidates do chess puzzles or solve Rubik's Cubes though.

jauntywundrkind 3y ago

I'm so so so glad Clay Shirky gave me this idea of thinking of where human potential gets channeled. I think the notion was out before this article (in talks), but here's one from 2008, Gin, Television, and Social Surplus, that says it well enough. "http://web.archive.org/web/20080708220257/http://www.shirky.com/herecomeseverybody/2008/04/looking-for-the-mouse.html http://web.archive.org/web/20080708220257/http://www.shirky.... There's a gradient here of interactivity. Gilligan's Island was almost purely passive; broadcast television, albeit yes it was a social phenomenon we'd talk about at the office or with friends. On the other end, there was this kind of idolized view that the online world was a receptacle for interactivity, that we could all be actively engaged. Oh, look at the wikipedia discourse around deciding what to do about the no-longer-a-planet Pluto. A mass of people deciding how to update the article. Wikipedia was a sink for engagement, and some of that was a productive use of human surplus. It idealized the tale, because so much wikipedia usage is passive, but even then: it's self directed, enriching. An available use of human capacity that seems so vastly much better than watching Gilligans Island. In some ways, things like Factorio are much more like Gilligan's Island than using (activley or passively) Wikipedia. Are the same kind of broadcast programming. But I still think there's a kind of mental engagement here that's different, that's better than where we were. Clicking the mouse is engagement, if not productive engagement, in a way that's different to me from receivership. The brain may be doing useless loops, but it's still an active participant. Being sharp doesn't innately count for anything, but I think that allure of places to reward the brain for being sharp count for something, that they suggest the value & reward of using one's potential. And I think that keeps many from being dull, from rusting out into lower potentials. I think it encodes the positive value system of trying.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

kbelder 3y ago

How much lifting are dumbbells sapping the world of?

deafpolygon 3y ago
Much less than you think. I'm no weightlifter, but it is a physical activity that does wonders for your brain function.

tomlockwood 3y ago

Ok but more serious question: How many PhDs are working on making advertising?

iancmceachern 3y ago

I think it's the other way around. Much of my early computer education was learned because I wanted to play games and my parents didn't know how to make them work. Making boot disks, etc. was a big part of my early exposure to computers. I played a lot of original Sim city, among other things, and organically over time I had devised , as a kid, a whole elaborate saving and naming system for my cities that involved versions and forking. Later, as an engineer in regulated industries, I've realized that what I built as a kid was a (nearly) ISO compliant revision and document management system. Factorio is fine. I'm worried about first person shooters, I think games where there is less intellectual aspect to them and more twitch reactive reflex stuff there is the less "good" it is for the players soul, and development.

deafpolygon 3y ago
Saying Factorio is fine and saying you're worried about first person shooters is contradictory. First person shooters may well breed the next gen of fighter pilots or snipers. Or maybe they'll enhance someone's dadflex and save a child from incoming danger. If you say Factorio is fine, then you can't say anything else is any different.
- iancmceachern 3y ago
  Because of the problem solving nature of its gameplay. It's like chess, or any other strategic game. There is a big argument that they teach us things. Just like team sports. It teaches us life skills. I argue that Factorio teaches more directly applicable life skills to the average person. Most jobs now involve solving some kind of problem using creativity and clicking/typing on a computer. Yes there are corner cases where it's nice to be a ninja. But most of us click and type on a computer all day solving problems a computer can't. First person shooters can be automated quite easily and have been, playing factorio, chess, etc. Are different. Yes they can still be automated, but it's clearly a higher bar.
  - deafpolygon 3y ago
    That's clearly a bias on your end. Factorio is no more of a problem-solving game than a first-person shooter is. There is a lot going on in a player's mind when playing FPS that may not be obvious, such as planning ahead, quick thinking and anticipating the opponents' movements. Those are also valuable skills that can be applied to many areas of life. Take Overwatch for example. There are role-based characters that fill a specific function in the game that require thinking, planning, and experience. It is also a team sport that teaches life skills. I do not see how automation can 'solve' that for you. It is not just purely finding the thing on the screen and clicking on it. They are not just solely twitch-based reactionary games. As with anything in life, too much chess/Factorio/etc. can also be detrimental. Balance is key.

deterministic 3y ago

How about the complete waste of engineers spending their career optimising ad revenues and attention grabbing? If Google or Facebook disappeared into a black hole tomorrow it would be inconvenient but we would all be fine. However if the people maintaining the electric grid or farms disappeared tomorrow most of us would not survive for long.

deterministic 3y ago

Sure let’s all stop having fun and instead work non-stop all the time to “maximise our potential”. Because that is what life is all about right? Surely nobody wants to “waste” their time enjoying themselves or having meaningful relationships right? Let’s all bow before the God of Productivity. May we all grind ourselves to death sacrificing our lives in the honour and glory of Productivity the Glorious. If you are having fun or enjoying yourself you are clearly not working hard enough. Shame on you!