6 ms·

I enjoy programming with other programmers. But I don't collaborate well with people who don't know a fucking thing about programming who try to put process on

I enjoy programming with other programmers. But I don't collaborate well with people who don't know a fucking thing about programming who try to put process on top of the process of programming. Cowboy is a complement. It doesn't mean "lone ranger" or "asshole", it means lazy, hard worker who takes the shortest path to greatest output. So, yup. Cowboy here.

vannevar 15y ago
I don't collaborate well with people who don't know a fucking thing about programming who try to put process on top of the process of programming. Fair enough. But what about someone who does know a lot about programming, who runs his team using agile methods. Could you collaborate well with that person?
- itsreallynotme 15y ago
  HN's algorighm thinks I'm a spammer and wouldn't let me reply, but really, itsnotme. I could collaborate well with that person. If I like the product and the people enough I'll work on a team that uses "Agile". But I do it knowing that process is not communication, and that standups are a fucking joke.
  - vannevar 15y ago
    No but communication is part of any effective process. Standup is just having everyone say what they accomplished yesterday and what they're planning on doing today. If you're on a team with more than three or four people, it's a useful way to get a quick summary of where everyone's at. Some people are good at letting other people know when they're stuck, but some aren't, and if you've got the latter on your team standup is a good catchall. Most teams, whether they're in software, sales, or sports, have some variation of the standup. Of all the scrum paractices it seems like it should be the least controversial.
    - itsreallynotme 15y ago
      No amount of process can fix bad communication. Standups are an attempt at that. Teams that have good communication succeed more, and standups aren't integral to their success. Teams with bad communication fail more, and standups can't help them. Sales teams and sports teams don't work as a comparison, they aren't building something (sales is a particularly bad example, most sales team members are in direct competition with each other). I'm trying to imagine standups on a building site. Tom: "Yesterday I.." Everyone cuts Tom off and talks over each other: "No shit, Tom. You're gonna work today, too." "That insulation isn't going to unroll itself!" "Tell us, dear Tom, will you be screwing the sheetrock in with a DeWalt or a Hitachi?" Good teams communicate while they build, and know where each other are.
      - vannevar 15y ago
        No amount of process can fix bad communication. Sure it can. If I've got a team member who can't be bothered to let people know what he's doing on his own, I can hold a standup every morning to make sure the information gets communicated to the team. If he lies every day about what he does, the longest he can go is one sprint before his work gets verified. I'm trying to imagine standups on a building site. I don't know, I think it goes something like this: "Hey Tom, how far did you guys get on the roofing yesterday?" "Only about a quarter of the way. Some dipshit ordered the wrong shingles." "Ok, Bob will you get on that today so Tom and Dick can finish the roofing? How about you Fred, where are you at on the sheetrock?" "Living room and kitchen are done, I should finish the bedrooms today..." etc. Pretty much what actually happens at a construction site if the builder is competent. I don't know what kind of standups you've been in but they sound like they were run by someone with no training or experience in the process. Good teams communicate while they build, and know where each other are. How do they communicate? What if Tom doesn't know what Dick's doing and Dick doesn't think to tell him because he doesn't know Tom needs to know? This doesn't magically happen even if everyone is individually a star at what they do.
        itsreallynotme 15y ago
        "Sure it can... If he lies every day about what he does, the longest he can go is one sprint before his work gets verified." That's not fixing bad communication. That's wrapping it up in process, and calling it "good enough". The team communication, and probably its morale and output, still sucks. "etc. Pretty much what actually happens at a construction site" That communication happens continuously, throughout the day. If isn't happening continuously, throwing a standup at it ain't gonna fix it.
brazzy 15y ago
Well, if you mean "Programming is a process" to include techniques of effective collaboration, then agile is part of programming. Claiming that people who try to define methods to do that better "don't know a fucking thing about programming" is A) a non-sequitur and B) indicates that you don't collaborate well, period. No, Cowboy is not a compliment. It means a hard worker who takes the shortest path to the greatest output of code that doesn't fulfill requirements and which nobody else can maintain.
- itsreallynotme 15y ago
  You say "techniques of effective collaboration", I say "talking to people". If you need guidelines for that, that's cool. The thing that suggests to me that you and I wouldn't work well together is that you make broad value judgements based on twisted interpretation and extrapolation of these comment threads.
  - brazzy 15y ago
    And you don't?

vannevar 15y ago

I don't collaborate well with people who don't know a fucking thing about programming who try to put process on top of the process of programming. Fair enough. But what about someone who does know a lot about programming, who runs his team using agile methods. Could you collaborate well with that person?

itsreallynotme 15y ago
HN's algorighm thinks I'm a spammer and wouldn't let me reply, but really, itsnotme. I could collaborate well with that person. If I like the product and the people enough I'll work on a team that uses "Agile". But I do it knowing that process is not communication, and that standups are a fucking joke.
- vannevar 15y ago
  No but communication is part of any effective process. Standup is just having everyone say what they accomplished yesterday and what they're planning on doing today. If you're on a team with more than three or four people, it's a useful way to get a quick summary of where everyone's at. Some people are good at letting other people know when they're stuck, but some aren't, and if you've got the latter on your team standup is a good catchall. Most teams, whether they're in software, sales, or sports, have some variation of the standup. Of all the scrum paractices it seems like it should be the least controversial.
  - itsreallynotme 15y ago
    No amount of process can fix bad communication. Standups are an attempt at that. Teams that have good communication succeed more, and standups aren't integral to their success. Teams with bad communication fail more, and standups can't help them. Sales teams and sports teams don't work as a comparison, they aren't building something (sales is a particularly bad example, most sales team members are in direct competition with each other). I'm trying to imagine standups on a building site. Tom: "Yesterday I.." Everyone cuts Tom off and talks over each other: "No shit, Tom. You're gonna work today, too." "That insulation isn't going to unroll itself!" "Tell us, dear Tom, will you be screwing the sheetrock in with a DeWalt or a Hitachi?" Good teams communicate while they build, and know where each other are.
    - vannevar 15y ago
      No amount of process can fix bad communication. Sure it can. If I've got a team member who can't be bothered to let people know what he's doing on his own, I can hold a standup every morning to make sure the information gets communicated to the team. If he lies every day about what he does, the longest he can go is one sprint before his work gets verified. I'm trying to imagine standups on a building site. I don't know, I think it goes something like this: "Hey Tom, how far did you guys get on the roofing yesterday?" "Only about a quarter of the way. Some dipshit ordered the wrong shingles." "Ok, Bob will you get on that today so Tom and Dick can finish the roofing? How about you Fred, where are you at on the sheetrock?" "Living room and kitchen are done, I should finish the bedrooms today..." etc. Pretty much what actually happens at a construction site if the builder is competent. I don't know what kind of standups you've been in but they sound like they were run by someone with no training or experience in the process. Good teams communicate while they build, and know where each other are. How do they communicate? What if Tom doesn't know what Dick's doing and Dick doesn't think to tell him because he doesn't know Tom needs to know? This doesn't magically happen even if everyone is individually a star at what they do.
      - itsreallynotme 15y ago
        "Sure it can... If he lies every day about what he does, the longest he can go is one sprint before his work gets verified." That's not fixing bad communication. That's wrapping it up in process, and calling it "good enough". The team communication, and probably its morale and output, still sucks. "etc. Pretty much what actually happens at a construction site" That communication happens continuously, throughout the day. If isn't happening continuously, throwing a standup at it ain't gonna fix it.

brazzy 15y ago

Well, if you mean "Programming is a process" to include techniques of effective collaboration, then agile is part of programming. Claiming that people who try to define methods to do that better "don't know a fucking thing about programming" is A) a non-sequitur and B) indicates that you don't collaborate well, period. No, Cowboy is not a compliment. It means a hard worker who takes the shortest path to the greatest output of code that doesn't fulfill requirements and which nobody else can maintain.

itsreallynotme 15y ago
You say "techniques of effective collaboration", I say "talking to people". If you need guidelines for that, that's cool. The thing that suggests to me that you and I wouldn't work well together is that you make broad value judgements based on twisted interpretation and extrapolation of these comment threads.
- brazzy 15y ago
  And you don't?