5 ms·

That's essentially capitalism. Profit > everything else

ta8645 3y ago
That's human nature. You won't get a better deal in Russia, China or any theoretical utopian civilization you dream up either. I don't know what the answer is, but it sure as hell isn't blaming everything on capitalism.
- realce 3y ago
  That's a PART of human nature, but to equate all of capitalism to all of human nature is a gross costuming.
- zlg_codes 3y ago
  Why is it people like yourself simply cannot fathom that one particular economic system could be harmful to humanity? We've managed to take a critical eye at superstition, religion, propaganda, all sorts of things. But the primary means through which inequality is carried out in society? NOOOO, leave that alone. That's perfectly fine where it is. People who align with that are profiting from capitalism.
  - ta8645 3y ago
    Why is it people like yourself can not learn from history? I'm all for moving in a better healthier direction, i'm not interested in repeating the mistakes of the past. For all its failings, capitalism has done more to improve the lives of every human on this planet more than any other system before. The burden of proof is thus on those who want to destroy it, to prove they have a viable and useful alternative that will ACTUALLY make the lives of people better. Instead, what I see is a direction that is guaranteed to lead to bloodshed and misery, with only a dreamers hope that what comes afterward is any better.
    - zlg_codes 3y ago
      > For all its failings, capitalism has done more to improve the lives of every human on this planet more than any other system before. I'd like to see some real numbers for this. Capitalism creates inequality which even the feudal eras of various countries couldn't match. Serfs enjoyed more spare time in their day than the modern full-time worker. Granted, they had their own problems to deal with, but to pretend that capitalism is the best because it's created the most inequality (i.e. someone's hit a really high score) Capitalism enables sociopathic behavior. In fact, it rewards it. The more profit you get from something, the better you're playing capitalism. Doesn't matter if what you're selling is remotely close to what you're charging, in value. Endless growth and profit must come from somewhere. Money and resources do not just poof into the world. Money can be printed, but that has consequences. A corporation exploiting my labor so they can profit, and shareholders giving them money with the expectation to make more back later (i.e. gambling) is not making the world any better. It's trapping people into a cycle of giving their most valuable resource -- time -- to others of its kind that wouldn't care if they died tomorrow. I'm not sure what an alternative would be. People act like there's only 2 or 3 systems out there. That dogmatic myopia is part of what traps us in shitty systems. Without capitalism, I could have control over my life. Why should an economic system dominate one's waking life? Businesses are not more important than individuals. They have no more right to exist than we do.
      - ta8645 3y ago
        > Without capitalism, I could have control over my life. Says who? You think people in China and Russia have more control over their life than those in the west? You've still not offered anything other than wishful thinking. You've not proposed any system to replace capitalism. Ultimately you're just offering destruction, with no vision for rebuilding other than, "I hope it gives me an easier life".
        zlg_codes 3y ago
        Do you think China and Russia aren't capitalistic in nature? They structure their markets very much like the West, because they end up having to do business with the West at some points. Do you really think there isn't a better system than accepting that some other human out there is going to get more out of your work than you? In nations with extreme abundance, it should be trivial to solve problems of homelessness and hunger. We have the means, but capitalism says "no, people must not be allowed to survive without working for others". Why are we the only animal on Earth that pays others of its kind to survive and exist? If capitalism cannot bring people up then its cancerous nature will naturally give way to unrest and change. Expecting me to know what that change would be, and what conditions would settle, is unreasonable. Labor should be a choice, and you should get the vast majority of the benefit for it. Capitalism cannot offer such things. It has nothing to offer except exploitation. It rewards preying on your fellow person and justifies everything with profits. Cancer incarnate.
- OkayPhysicist 3y ago
  That's not entirely fair. The main downside Capitalism has in this discussion is that the wellbeing of the people is not even one of it's stated goals. You can argue all you like about Socialism being a failed ideology, or impossibly utopian, that's it's own conversation. But it makes the common welfare a stated goal to strive for. Capitalism does not. Capitalism's goal is to maximize the creation wealth by allowing individuals to privately hold wealth and efficiently leverage it to produce more wealth. Currently, humans are a crucial element in the production of wealth, which has allowed labor to capture some amount of that wealth for themselves. But that's not central to Capitalism. If you can generate massive amounts of wealth and give none of it to your workforce, you've succeeded at Capitalism, even if it means the 90+% of the population who don't own much capital at all starve in the streets. In contrast, Communism's stated goal is the achievement of a classless, moneyless society that provides to each according to their need, and each works according to their ability. Unlike Capitalism, the elimination of the necessity of labor doesn't intrinsically cause everybody to starve. It just dwindles away the necessity of the "from each according to their ability" part. So you can argue about what other better solutions there are, but if we're pushing towards a world with less and less need for human labor, Capitalism is flatly untenable. Capitalism's answer to human labor being optional is that the former labor class dies.
  - ta8645 3y ago
    > In contrast, Communism's stated goal is the achievement of a classless What good is a stated goal if the reality is the opposite? Capitalism may not have a lofty sounding goal to your ear, but the fair trade of goods and services is actually a pursuit in the betterment and empowerment of mankind. Of course, human nature gets in the way, and leads to corruption that needs to be constantly addressed and readdressed, but that will never change no matter what system you dream up. And while capitalism isn't draped in utpoian idealism, it has the benefit of having proven to be able to lift a huge bulk of humanity out of subsistence living.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - 3y ago
- TotalCrackpot 3y ago
  Do you know that slavery too was justified to be just human nature and now it's fairly niche in richer parts of the world? Your argument is essentialist, so I find it weak. And both Russia and China are capitalist countries actually.
  - gadflyinyoureye 3y ago
    https://www.un.org/en/delegate/50-million-people-modern-slavery-un-report https://www.un.org/en/delegate/50-million-people-modern-slav... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_contemporary_Africa https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_contemporary_Afri...
    - TotalCrackpot 3y ago
      Ok, so do you endorse slavery cause its human nature? What is your point? 50 million out of over 8 billion is much better ratio than what was in some societies based on slavery.
      - gadflyinyoureye 3y ago
        I think slavery is human nature. White people didn’t invent it. All cultures came up with it through various versions. But then again rape and murder is human nature too. My point was that slavery is still a real thing even in poor countries. Hence the second link about Africa.
- epolanski 3y ago
  Capitalism clearly does not work. It's destroying the planet, making people stupid, numb and distracted and it is very inefficient at allocating resources for anything that doesn't generate profit. That being said, I know no better alternative, albeit I think high automation may make some solutions feasible.

That's human nature. You won't get a better deal in Russia, China or any theoretical utopian civilization you dream up either. I don't know what the answer is, but it sure as hell isn't blaming everything on capitalism.

realce 3y ago
That's a PART of human nature, but to equate all of capitalism to all of human nature is a gross costuming.
zlg_codes 3y ago
Why is it people like yourself simply cannot fathom that one particular economic system could be harmful to humanity? We've managed to take a critical eye at superstition, religion, propaganda, all sorts of things. But the primary means through which inequality is carried out in society? NOOOO, leave that alone. That's perfectly fine where it is. People who align with that are profiting from capitalism.
- ta8645 3y ago
  Why is it people like yourself can not learn from history? I'm all for moving in a better healthier direction, i'm not interested in repeating the mistakes of the past. For all its failings, capitalism has done more to improve the lives of every human on this planet more than any other system before. The burden of proof is thus on those who want to destroy it, to prove they have a viable and useful alternative that will ACTUALLY make the lives of people better. Instead, what I see is a direction that is guaranteed to lead to bloodshed and misery, with only a dreamers hope that what comes afterward is any better.
  - zlg_codes 3y ago
    > For all its failings, capitalism has done more to improve the lives of every human on this planet more than any other system before. I'd like to see some real numbers for this. Capitalism creates inequality which even the feudal eras of various countries couldn't match. Serfs enjoyed more spare time in their day than the modern full-time worker. Granted, they had their own problems to deal with, but to pretend that capitalism is the best because it's created the most inequality (i.e. someone's hit a really high score) Capitalism enables sociopathic behavior. In fact, it rewards it. The more profit you get from something, the better you're playing capitalism. Doesn't matter if what you're selling is remotely close to what you're charging, in value. Endless growth and profit must come from somewhere. Money and resources do not just poof into the world. Money can be printed, but that has consequences. A corporation exploiting my labor so they can profit, and shareholders giving them money with the expectation to make more back later (i.e. gambling) is not making the world any better. It's trapping people into a cycle of giving their most valuable resource -- time -- to others of its kind that wouldn't care if they died tomorrow. I'm not sure what an alternative would be. People act like there's only 2 or 3 systems out there. That dogmatic myopia is part of what traps us in shitty systems. Without capitalism, I could have control over my life. Why should an economic system dominate one's waking life? Businesses are not more important than individuals. They have no more right to exist than we do.
    - ta8645 3y ago
      > Without capitalism, I could have control over my life. Says who? You think people in China and Russia have more control over their life than those in the west? You've still not offered anything other than wishful thinking. You've not proposed any system to replace capitalism. Ultimately you're just offering destruction, with no vision for rebuilding other than, "I hope it gives me an easier life".
      - zlg_codes 3y ago
        Do you think China and Russia aren't capitalistic in nature? They structure their markets very much like the West, because they end up having to do business with the West at some points. Do you really think there isn't a better system than accepting that some other human out there is going to get more out of your work than you? In nations with extreme abundance, it should be trivial to solve problems of homelessness and hunger. We have the means, but capitalism says "no, people must not be allowed to survive without working for others". Why are we the only animal on Earth that pays others of its kind to survive and exist? If capitalism cannot bring people up then its cancerous nature will naturally give way to unrest and change. Expecting me to know what that change would be, and what conditions would settle, is unreasonable. Labor should be a choice, and you should get the vast majority of the benefit for it. Capitalism cannot offer such things. It has nothing to offer except exploitation. It rewards preying on your fellow person and justifies everything with profits. Cancer incarnate.
OkayPhysicist 3y ago
That's not entirely fair. The main downside Capitalism has in this discussion is that the wellbeing of the people is not even one of it's stated goals. You can argue all you like about Socialism being a failed ideology, or impossibly utopian, that's it's own conversation. But it makes the common welfare a stated goal to strive for. Capitalism does not. Capitalism's goal is to maximize the creation wealth by allowing individuals to privately hold wealth and efficiently leverage it to produce more wealth. Currently, humans are a crucial element in the production of wealth, which has allowed labor to capture some amount of that wealth for themselves. But that's not central to Capitalism. If you can generate massive amounts of wealth and give none of it to your workforce, you've succeeded at Capitalism, even if it means the 90+% of the population who don't own much capital at all starve in the streets. In contrast, Communism's stated goal is the achievement of a classless, moneyless society that provides to each according to their need, and each works according to their ability. Unlike Capitalism, the elimination of the necessity of labor doesn't intrinsically cause everybody to starve. It just dwindles away the necessity of the "from each according to their ability" part. So you can argue about what other better solutions there are, but if we're pushing towards a world with less and less need for human labor, Capitalism is flatly untenable. Capitalism's answer to human labor being optional is that the former labor class dies.
- ta8645 3y ago
  > In contrast, Communism's stated goal is the achievement of a classless What good is a stated goal if the reality is the opposite? Capitalism may not have a lofty sounding goal to your ear, but the fair trade of goods and services is actually a pursuit in the betterment and empowerment of mankind. Of course, human nature gets in the way, and leads to corruption that needs to be constantly addressed and readdressed, but that will never change no matter what system you dream up. And while capitalism isn't draped in utpoian idealism, it has the benefit of having proven to be able to lift a huge bulk of humanity out of subsistence living.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - 3y ago
TotalCrackpot 3y ago
Do you know that slavery too was justified to be just human nature and now it's fairly niche in richer parts of the world? Your argument is essentialist, so I find it weak. And both Russia and China are capitalist countries actually.
- gadflyinyoureye 3y ago
  https://www.un.org/en/delegate/50-million-people-modern-slavery-un-report https://www.un.org/en/delegate/50-million-people-modern-slav... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_contemporary_Africa https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_contemporary_Afri...
  - TotalCrackpot 3y ago
    Ok, so do you endorse slavery cause its human nature? What is your point? 50 million out of over 8 billion is much better ratio than what was in some societies based on slavery.
    - gadflyinyoureye 3y ago
      I think slavery is human nature. White people didn’t invent it. All cultures came up with it through various versions. But then again rape and murder is human nature too. My point was that slavery is still a real thing even in poor countries. Hence the second link about Africa.
epolanski 3y ago
Capitalism clearly does not work. It's destroying the planet, making people stupid, numb and distracted and it is very inefficient at allocating resources for anything that doesn't generate profit. That being said, I know no better alternative, albeit I think high automation may make some solutions feasible.