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It's like taking a rabid badger as a roommate. You can in theory keep it cornered in its own room (sandbox), but there's no way to be 100% sure it'll stay ther

It's like taking a rabid badger as a roommate. You can in theory keep it cornered in its own room (sandbox), but there's no way to be 100% sure it'll stay there. You can be absolutely sure that it will never stop trying to get out. App Store apps can be trusted to stick to a sandbox because they are vetted to a standard before being allowed there. There's no reason for Epic-F-Droid-Store have their applications adhere to any kind of standards enforced by Apple. They can do whatever shitty manipulative tricks they want to try to escape any OS level sandboxing Apple tries to build. Doubly so for 3rd party browsers. A browser has a huge attack surface and can also run code (javascript and WASM at the least). Keeping it secure and sandboxed is not a trivial thing.

disiplus 3y ago
Ok, so what, apple can still claim you have the same protection if you use just our app store. And I have the ability to use the alternative store where I can download a game without paying apple 30%. It's great.
- maccard 3y ago
  It won't be an alternative store, the game will get pulled from the app store. Now, despite the fact that I bought an iOS device to avoid having to deal with shitty third parties, I'm forced to use the epic store and whatever else.
  - redeeman 3y ago
    yes, zuckerberg is literally holding a gun to you head, "INSTALL META OR ELSE!"
    - maccard 3y ago
      This sort of comment is incredibly low value and doesn't contribute to the discussion. I'm not being forced to install Facebook, but I choose to install it on my device. When this changes happens, the choice isn't going to be "install Facebook from the App Store or the Meta Store", it's going to be "install Facebook from the Meta Store". That's not a choice to the user, it's a choice for meta. A choice for the user is choosing to buy an iPhone with the knowledge that this is a limitation, and if I don't want that limitation, I can buy an android device.
      - smoldesu 3y ago
        > This sort of comment is incredibly low value and doesn't contribute to the discussion. We're 4 comments deep on a thread of people worried about Facebook being removed from the App Store. Reminding everyone that Meta is optional might be the most rational thing typed in response to this godforsaken article.
        nemothekid 3y ago
        >Reminding everyone that Meta is optional Installing Meta is optional, but somehow buying an iPhone isn't.
        smoldesu 3y ago
        Buying an iPhone is optional, living in an anticompetitive digital market is not. I hope you and the European iPhone users can reconcile that.
      - Moldoteck 3y ago
        The user can choose to not install fb from another store if they care about privacy, simply as that, user decides what's in their phone
        maccard 3y ago
        The user has that choice right now to not install it from the App Store if that's their preference.
        Moldoteck 3y ago
        yep, user can choose to do what they want, including installing apps from third party or viceversa - not installing an app that doesn't respect their privacy/values
        maccard 3y ago
    - theshrike79 3y ago
      Epic will pull Fortnite off App Store at lightning speed. It'll only be available on their own store where they get 100% of profits and can use any kind of predatory crap to get kids to pay for the next fancy skin.
      - redeeman 3y ago
        yes and thankfully you have all the freedom to not buy it as its not in the walled garden. Epic is not forced to put fortnite on ios as it is now, they choose to, but arent forced. You should absolutely be free to opt into a walled garden if you want to, but do not force others to go into the garden to play
        maccard 3y ago
        > but do not force others to go into the garden to play I choose to live in the walled garden, and there is another option (android) for those who don't. You telling me the walls have to come down is you bringing your rules to the garden _I_ choose to be in.
        redeeman 3y ago
        clearly a great many iphone users would rather the non-walled garden, or they would just only install things that comes via it, and you have the best of both worlds? perhaps your wish (of convenient limitations) just isnt the most popular? I happen to largely agree that some of the walls apple puts up is for the best, but I would never presume to think I have the right to force that on others. Sure, keep their walled garden, if meta/epic/whatever does not want to play with that walled garden, well.. thats on them, and on their patrons to decide if they wish to patron
        maccard 3y ago
        The walled garden isn't just what comes with the device, it's that plus the app store - knowing for example that any game I download will allow me to pay via apple pay, login with apple, manage my subscriptionz and cancel them in a sane way. > thats on them, and on their patrons to decide if they wish to patron This isn't giving the patrons a choice though, it's giving epic or meta a choice. The user has to accept whatever they do, and personally I trust apple to do that more than I do a random developer.
    - synecdoche 3y ago
      Don't know about elsewhere but in Sweden companies, and what's worse government funded organisations, outsource and demand the use of services by Google, Facebook etc. Otherwise you'll be treated like a second class citizen.
Apocryphon 3y ago
If the sandbox can be imposed on an OS level then apps on alternative stores will have to conform to the same baseline of security restrictions.
- theshrike79 3y ago
  The issue is that "imposing the sandbox" isn't simple. Apple themselves have "imposed a sandbox" for Safari since the first version appeared on iOS. Still we had multiple exploits, even though they owned both sides of the code. Now imagine a situation where you're building a sandbox and the sandboxed application is using every trick possible to try to get out.
  - _aavaa_ 3y ago
    > Now imagine a situation where you're building a sandbox and the sandboxed application is using every trick possible to try to get out. This hellish hypothetical you pose already exists. It’s called macOS.
theshrike79 3y ago
-4 points, really? Argue with the premise, don't just tap downvote. This isn't Reddit.
ragestorm 3y ago
I would equate it to a rabid badger that is behind a door behind another door with both having signs saying ‘beware of rabid badger’. If you want to play with the badger, go for it or just leave the doors shut and you never have to worry about it.
- LexGray 3y ago
  Yes, but in a world where people have been trained to ignore signs if they want to have nice things. No kid and most adults would think twice before clicking I agree even if the screen was flashing red and the phone was making klaxon sounds.
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    If there's any company in the world that can use UX to their advantage, it's Apple. If they can create text message social division simply through blue vs. green bubble, they can find a way to subtly make non-App Store apps unpalatable except to technical users who know what they're doing.

disiplus 3y ago

Ok, so what, apple can still claim you have the same protection if you use just our app store. And I have the ability to use the alternative store where I can download a game without paying apple 30%. It's great.

maccard 3y ago
It won't be an alternative store, the game will get pulled from the app store. Now, despite the fact that I bought an iOS device to avoid having to deal with shitty third parties, I'm forced to use the epic store and whatever else.
- redeeman 3y ago
  yes, zuckerberg is literally holding a gun to you head, "INSTALL META OR ELSE!"
  - maccard 3y ago
    This sort of comment is incredibly low value and doesn't contribute to the discussion. I'm not being forced to install Facebook, but I choose to install it on my device. When this changes happens, the choice isn't going to be "install Facebook from the App Store or the Meta Store", it's going to be "install Facebook from the Meta Store". That's not a choice to the user, it's a choice for meta. A choice for the user is choosing to buy an iPhone with the knowledge that this is a limitation, and if I don't want that limitation, I can buy an android device.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      > This sort of comment is incredibly low value and doesn't contribute to the discussion. We're 4 comments deep on a thread of people worried about Facebook being removed from the App Store. Reminding everyone that Meta is optional might be the most rational thing typed in response to this godforsaken article.
      - nemothekid 3y ago
        >Reminding everyone that Meta is optional Installing Meta is optional, but somehow buying an iPhone isn't.
        smoldesu 3y ago
        Buying an iPhone is optional, living in an anticompetitive digital market is not. I hope you and the European iPhone users can reconcile that.
    - Moldoteck 3y ago
      The user can choose to not install fb from another store if they care about privacy, simply as that, user decides what's in their phone
      - maccard 3y ago
        The user has that choice right now to not install it from the App Store if that's their preference.
        Moldoteck 3y ago
        yep, user can choose to do what they want, including installing apps from third party or viceversa - not installing an app that doesn't respect their privacy/values
        maccard 3y ago
  - theshrike79 3y ago
    Epic will pull Fortnite off App Store at lightning speed. It'll only be available on their own store where they get 100% of profits and can use any kind of predatory crap to get kids to pay for the next fancy skin.
    - redeeman 3y ago
      yes and thankfully you have all the freedom to not buy it as its not in the walled garden. Epic is not forced to put fortnite on ios as it is now, they choose to, but arent forced. You should absolutely be free to opt into a walled garden if you want to, but do not force others to go into the garden to play
      - maccard 3y ago
        > but do not force others to go into the garden to play I choose to live in the walled garden, and there is another option (android) for those who don't. You telling me the walls have to come down is you bringing your rules to the garden _I_ choose to be in.
        redeeman 3y ago
        clearly a great many iphone users would rather the non-walled garden, or they would just only install things that comes via it, and you have the best of both worlds? perhaps your wish (of convenient limitations) just isnt the most popular? I happen to largely agree that some of the walls apple puts up is for the best, but I would never presume to think I have the right to force that on others. Sure, keep their walled garden, if meta/epic/whatever does not want to play with that walled garden, well.. thats on them, and on their patrons to decide if they wish to patron
        maccard 3y ago
        The walled garden isn't just what comes with the device, it's that plus the app store - knowing for example that any game I download will allow me to pay via apple pay, login with apple, manage my subscriptionz and cancel them in a sane way. > thats on them, and on their patrons to decide if they wish to patron This isn't giving the patrons a choice though, it's giving epic or meta a choice. The user has to accept whatever they do, and personally I trust apple to do that more than I do a random developer.
  - synecdoche 3y ago
    Don't know about elsewhere but in Sweden companies, and what's worse government funded organisations, outsource and demand the use of services by Google, Facebook etc. Otherwise you'll be treated like a second class citizen.

Apocryphon 3y ago

If the sandbox can be imposed on an OS level then apps on alternative stores will have to conform to the same baseline of security restrictions.

theshrike79 3y ago
The issue is that "imposing the sandbox" isn't simple. Apple themselves have "imposed a sandbox" for Safari since the first version appeared on iOS. Still we had multiple exploits, even though they owned both sides of the code. Now imagine a situation where you're building a sandbox and the sandboxed application is using every trick possible to try to get out.
- _aavaa_ 3y ago
  > Now imagine a situation where you're building a sandbox and the sandboxed application is using every trick possible to try to get out. This hellish hypothetical you pose already exists. It’s called macOS.

theshrike79 3y ago

-4 points, really? Argue with the premise, don't just tap downvote. This isn't Reddit.

ragestorm 3y ago

I would equate it to a rabid badger that is behind a door behind another door with both having signs saying ‘beware of rabid badger’. If you want to play with the badger, go for it or just leave the doors shut and you never have to worry about it.

LexGray 3y ago
Yes, but in a world where people have been trained to ignore signs if they want to have nice things. No kid and most adults would think twice before clicking I agree even if the screen was flashing red and the phone was making klaxon sounds.
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  If there's any company in the world that can use UX to their advantage, it's Apple. If they can create text message social division simply through blue vs. green bubble, they can find a way to subtly make non-App Store apps unpalatable except to technical users who know what they're doing.