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I was at [IAPP Global Privacy Summit](https://iapp.org/conference/global-privacy-summit/ https://iapp.org/conference/global-privacy-summit/) 2022, where Tim Coo

I was at [IAPP Global Privacy Summit](https://iapp.org/conference/global-privacy-summit/ https://iapp.org/conference/global-privacy-summit/) 2022, where Tim Cook gave a keynote. He started with highlighting all of the ways Apple protects its users privacy (many of which are great, and the reason I use Apple products!), but then he pivoted to make the case that Apple being forced to allow rival app stores would compromise their ability to protect users' privacy. This fell flat to many in the audience: why can't Apple continue to offer a privacy-by-default experience while allowing more competition?

andersa 3y ago
It's just BS. Privacy and security are OS functions, not part of an app store. iOS has a good base here already - certainly much better than windows where every app can just arbitrarily read every file on the computer...
- tenebrisalietum 3y ago
  > Privacy and security are OS functions Naive take. Network sockets, remote servers, and data brokers don't care about local file permissions and an OS won't be able to tell me if corp-surveillance.justbuyme.com might be a domain hosting a privacy-disrespecting service without some sort of human-mediated reputation service.
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    Then we can look forward to an exciting front in the arms race that is computer security. Surely Apple, for all of their engineering and design brilliance, are up to the challenge?
    - tenebrisalietum 3y ago
      It's not too exciting. That front is capability-based operating systems (someday) and application whitelisting (a.k.a. an app store).
- meroes 3y ago
  This is not a technical problem.
theshrike79 3y ago
It's like taking a rabid badger as a roommate. You can in theory keep it cornered in its own room (sandbox), but there's no way to be 100% sure it'll stay there. You can be absolutely sure that it will never stop trying to get out. App Store apps can be trusted to stick to a sandbox because they are vetted to a standard before being allowed there. There's no reason for Epic-F-Droid-Store have their applications adhere to any kind of standards enforced by Apple. They can do whatever shitty manipulative tricks they want to try to escape any OS level sandboxing Apple tries to build. Doubly so for 3rd party browsers. A browser has a huge attack surface and can also run code (javascript and WASM at the least). Keeping it secure and sandboxed is not a trivial thing.
- disiplus 3y ago
  Ok, so what, apple can still claim you have the same protection if you use just our app store. And I have the ability to use the alternative store where I can download a game without paying apple 30%. It's great.
  - maccard 3y ago
    It won't be an alternative store, the game will get pulled from the app store. Now, despite the fact that I bought an iOS device to avoid having to deal with shitty third parties, I'm forced to use the epic store and whatever else.
    - redeeman 3y ago
      yes, zuckerberg is literally holding a gun to you head, "INSTALL META OR ELSE!"
      - maccard 3y ago
        This sort of comment is incredibly low value and doesn't contribute to the discussion. I'm not being forced to install Facebook, but I choose to install it on my device. When this changes happens, the choice isn't going to be "install Facebook from the App Store or the Meta Store", it's going to be "install Facebook from the Meta Store". That's not a choice to the user, it's a choice for meta. A choice for the user is choosing to buy an iPhone with the knowledge that this is a limitation, and if I don't want that limitation, I can buy an android device.
lacker 3y ago
The app store rules and review process are essentially the only thing that prevents Facebook from tracking you across all applications that use the Facebook SDK. It probably isn't possible to prevent tracking in a purely technical way. Even if two applications can't share data directly, they can each share fingerprinting information with a server, that allows Facebook to track you. This sort of tracking can work even if you don't have a Facebook account, because so many different applications will include the Facebook SDK for ad tracking purposes. Nothing specific to Facebook here, of course, it works the same way for any company with a large ad network.
- Moldoteck 3y ago
  So if you don't install fb app from another place pr don't use fb at all, privacy will be preserved, gotcha
  - Sweepi 3y ago
    Wrong: Dont install any App which uses the Facebook SDK (1), which you have no (sensible) way of finding out, otherwise FB will track, combine, condense and analyze your data across multiple Apps without ever asking you. (1) or any other tracking SDK
    - summm 3y ago
      Exodus analyzes apps and shows the used SDKs: https://exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/ https://exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/
      - nardi 3y ago
        The fact that the data exists somewhere is small comfort if users cannot read the privacy implications in the app store itself when they're deciding whether to download an app.
natch 3y ago
>Why can’t Apple… Because not all users choose what goes on their phones. Some users have it chosen for them by abusive family members. Asked and answered.
zappb 3y ago
[dead]
Aerbil313 3y ago
Because grandmas and scammers. It took me a long time to realize that Apple is doing the right thing here. Outside of our little bubble, smartphones are a means to an end. No one bothers to learn technology more than what they can get by in their everyday life. Technology needs to be as simple and intuitive as possible. Now, if Apple were to let a person enter developer mode by solving some Leetcode puzzles or CS quizzes, I'd be all in for it. Though I can still see scammers scamming people even with this.

andersa 3y ago

It's just BS. Privacy and security are OS functions, not part of an app store. iOS has a good base here already - certainly much better than windows where every app can just arbitrarily read every file on the computer...

tenebrisalietum 3y ago
> Privacy and security are OS functions Naive take. Network sockets, remote servers, and data brokers don't care about local file permissions and an OS won't be able to tell me if corp-surveillance.justbuyme.com might be a domain hosting a privacy-disrespecting service without some sort of human-mediated reputation service.
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  Then we can look forward to an exciting front in the arms race that is computer security. Surely Apple, for all of their engineering and design brilliance, are up to the challenge?
  - tenebrisalietum 3y ago
    It's not too exciting. That front is capability-based operating systems (someday) and application whitelisting (a.k.a. an app store).
meroes 3y ago
This is not a technical problem.

theshrike79 3y ago

It's like taking a rabid badger as a roommate. You can in theory keep it cornered in its own room (sandbox), but there's no way to be 100% sure it'll stay there. You can be absolutely sure that it will never stop trying to get out. App Store apps can be trusted to stick to a sandbox because they are vetted to a standard before being allowed there. There's no reason for Epic-F-Droid-Store have their applications adhere to any kind of standards enforced by Apple. They can do whatever shitty manipulative tricks they want to try to escape any OS level sandboxing Apple tries to build. Doubly so for 3rd party browsers. A browser has a huge attack surface and can also run code (javascript and WASM at the least). Keeping it secure and sandboxed is not a trivial thing.

disiplus 3y ago
Ok, so what, apple can still claim you have the same protection if you use just our app store. And I have the ability to use the alternative store where I can download a game without paying apple 30%. It's great.
- maccard 3y ago
  It won't be an alternative store, the game will get pulled from the app store. Now, despite the fact that I bought an iOS device to avoid having to deal with shitty third parties, I'm forced to use the epic store and whatever else.
  - redeeman 3y ago
    yes, zuckerberg is literally holding a gun to you head, "INSTALL META OR ELSE!"
    - maccard 3y ago
      This sort of comment is incredibly low value and doesn't contribute to the discussion. I'm not being forced to install Facebook, but I choose to install it on my device. When this changes happens, the choice isn't going to be "install Facebook from the App Store or the Meta Store", it's going to be "install Facebook from the Meta Store". That's not a choice to the user, it's a choice for meta. A choice for the user is choosing to buy an iPhone with the knowledge that this is a limitation, and if I don't want that limitation, I can buy an android device.

lacker 3y ago

The app store rules and review process are essentially the only thing that prevents Facebook from tracking you across all applications that use the Facebook SDK. It probably isn't possible to prevent tracking in a purely technical way. Even if two applications can't share data directly, they can each share fingerprinting information with a server, that allows Facebook to track you. This sort of tracking can work even if you don't have a Facebook account, because so many different applications will include the Facebook SDK for ad tracking purposes. Nothing specific to Facebook here, of course, it works the same way for any company with a large ad network.

Moldoteck 3y ago
So if you don't install fb app from another place pr don't use fb at all, privacy will be preserved, gotcha
- Sweepi 3y ago
  Wrong: Dont install any App which uses the Facebook SDK (1), which you have no (sensible) way of finding out, otherwise FB will track, combine, condense and analyze your data across multiple Apps without ever asking you. (1) or any other tracking SDK
  - summm 3y ago
    Exodus analyzes apps and shows the used SDKs: https://exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/ https://exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/
    - nardi 3y ago
      The fact that the data exists somewhere is small comfort if users cannot read the privacy implications in the app store itself when they're deciding whether to download an app.

natch 3y ago

>Why can’t Apple… Because not all users choose what goes on their phones. Some users have it chosen for them by abusive family members. Asked and answered.

zappb 3y ago

[dead]

Aerbil313 3y ago

Because grandmas and scammers. It took me a long time to realize that Apple is doing the right thing here. Outside of our little bubble, smartphones are a means to an end. No one bothers to learn technology more than what they can get by in their everyday life. Technology needs to be as simple and intuitive as possible. Now, if Apple were to let a person enter developer mode by solving some Leetcode puzzles or CS quizzes, I'd be all in for it. Though I can still see scammers scamming people even with this.