3 ms·

I'm saying that software is getting bloated over time, and it needn't - if the idea is to keep software engineers employed, we could spend a few years doing a t

by vkaku 3y ago

I'm saying that software is getting bloated over time, and it needn't - if the idea is to keep software engineers employed, we could spend a few years doing a tick - increasing features and more years doing a tock - making things lean, efficient and sustainable. This is a very different idea, it's just like you said: 'finding good use with the old hardware'. This is a mindset, it is something that tries to keep systems alive while ensuring sustainability. Fixing broken hardware or softwre - This is what the post is about. As engineers, we should be realizing that there's tons of work lying around, and sustainability is a process and a goal. This is about recognizing how to put those efforts around it.

vel0city 3y ago
> I'm saying that software is getting bloated over time, and it needn't But the "bloat" isn't just wasted space and resources; its often genuinely useful features. Your example with Office XP is a great example. We can look at just Word and compare it to even Word 2007. Its missing a lot of genuinely useful features. Its math equation builder is absolutely rudimentary and pretty bad compared to what is available in 2007. It doesn't show a live word count in the status bar. It doesn't offer the quick styles functionality. It lacks good bibliography and citation tools. Its document comparison engine is very rudimentary. It lacks a full screen reading mode. Its spell checker is extremely rudimentary. Are these additions just bloat? A contextual spell checker is going to use more CPU and RAM than just looking at whitespace and seeing if the word matches a database or hits a set of basic morphology rules, isn't? Handling a more complicated set of changes to do comparisons on is probably going to lead to a more complicated internal representation of the document, consuming more resources, isn't it? Having the processing and designs of the reading mode means the application is larger and consumes more ram, doesn't it? So its increasing the requirements by a good bit, but you're getting a lot of features along side it. Ah, but Office 2007, that's a bloated mess. But once again, if your standard is just putting black letters on a white page, why are you even bothering drawing colors to the screen? Aren't colors just bloat? Why have a screen at all? Just bloat. So yeah, does Word 2021 require a lot more resources to run than Office XP? Sure. It also does a whole hell of a lot more. Far better pen input with smart shapes, equations, and more. Far better dictation support. Even more enhanced contextual spelling/grammar tools along with a smart editor feature to give better critique. Better annotation and commenting tools. Better change tracking and comparison tools. Better collaboration features and live cloud syncing. New search tool to search settings, resources, help, and more. Accessibility checker tool helps find potential improvements to your documents like help adding alt-text and other things. Its not like Office 2021 is just the same thing as Office XP but now it needs at least a gigahertz and a few gigs of RAM. If that were the case, I'd agree its just bloat. But its got thousands and thousands of improvements and new features, all of which demand just a little bit more and a little bit more resources. Its unreasonable to expect for them to be able to shoehorn all the same features of Office 2021 into similar requirements of Office XP. And even then, picking Office XP is entirely arbitrary; why not hold them up to Office 95 as the standard of resources? If its using more than 8MB of RAM and 55MB of storage space clearly its just bloat. Why should a videogame need any more resources than the original DOOM? Clearly everything added on is just bloat.
- vkaku 3y ago
  You completely miss the point about sustainability and choose to argue, you go ahead. If I were running an older computer, I would figure out how to be productive with Office 95. Likely prediction: You will never build that Pentium III machine from old or refurbished parts. Nor will you be the type that will actually enjoy playing DOOM or anything with that machine. You'll instead keep complaining. Sustainability, Preservation - It's a mindset. If you don't get it, you don't do it. :-)
  - vel0city 3y ago
    Quite a rude assumption there, seeing as how I've already mentioned I have the machines and they're currently running, and I've already talked about how I do retro computing as a hobby. They're just not in the state for little kids beating on them daily. You know, from a whole preservation mindset. I've said nothing against sustainability, only pushed back against your claims that modern software is just bloat compared to what was there in the past. Often a 1/2HP motor just isn't enough oomph for what you're wanting to achieve. There's nothing innately wrong with that, and it's not just bloat. Sometimes the things you want to move are just heavy and the physics of the challenge requires more power.

by vkaku 3y ago

vel0city 3y ago

> I'm saying that software is getting bloated over time, and it needn't But the "bloat" isn't just wasted space and resources; its often genuinely useful features. Your example with Office XP is a great example. We can look at just Word and compare it to even Word 2007. Its missing a lot of genuinely useful features. Its math equation builder is absolutely rudimentary and pretty bad compared to what is available in 2007. It doesn't show a live word count in the status bar. It doesn't offer the quick styles functionality. It lacks good bibliography and citation tools. Its document comparison engine is very rudimentary. It lacks a full screen reading mode. Its spell checker is extremely rudimentary. Are these additions just bloat? A contextual spell checker is going to use more CPU and RAM than just looking at whitespace and seeing if the word matches a database or hits a set of basic morphology rules, isn't? Handling a more complicated set of changes to do comparisons on is probably going to lead to a more complicated internal representation of the document, consuming more resources, isn't it? Having the processing and designs of the reading mode means the application is larger and consumes more ram, doesn't it? So its increasing the requirements by a good bit, but you're getting a lot of features along side it. Ah, but Office 2007, that's a bloated mess. But once again, if your standard is just putting black letters on a white page, why are you even bothering drawing colors to the screen? Aren't colors just bloat? Why have a screen at all? Just bloat. So yeah, does Word 2021 require a lot more resources to run than Office XP? Sure. It also does a whole hell of a lot more. Far better pen input with smart shapes, equations, and more. Far better dictation support. Even more enhanced contextual spelling/grammar tools along with a smart editor feature to give better critique. Better annotation and commenting tools. Better change tracking and comparison tools. Better collaboration features and live cloud syncing. New search tool to search settings, resources, help, and more. Accessibility checker tool helps find potential improvements to your documents like help adding alt-text and other things. Its not like Office 2021 is just the same thing as Office XP but now it needs at least a gigahertz and a few gigs of RAM. If that were the case, I'd agree its just bloat. But its got thousands and thousands of improvements and new features, all of which demand just a little bit more and a little bit more resources. Its unreasonable to expect for them to be able to shoehorn all the same features of Office 2021 into similar requirements of Office XP. And even then, picking Office XP is entirely arbitrary; why not hold them up to Office 95 as the standard of resources? If its using more than 8MB of RAM and 55MB of storage space clearly its just bloat. Why should a videogame need any more resources than the original DOOM? Clearly everything added on is just bloat.

vkaku 3y ago
You completely miss the point about sustainability and choose to argue, you go ahead. If I were running an older computer, I would figure out how to be productive with Office 95. Likely prediction: You will never build that Pentium III machine from old or refurbished parts. Nor will you be the type that will actually enjoy playing DOOM or anything with that machine. You'll instead keep complaining. Sustainability, Preservation - It's a mindset. If you don't get it, you don't do it. :-)
- vel0city 3y ago
  Quite a rude assumption there, seeing as how I've already mentioned I have the machines and they're currently running, and I've already talked about how I do retro computing as a hobby. They're just not in the state for little kids beating on them daily. You know, from a whole preservation mindset. I've said nothing against sustainability, only pushed back against your claims that modern software is just bloat compared to what was there in the past. Often a 1/2HP motor just isn't enough oomph for what you're wanting to achieve. There's nothing innately wrong with that, and it's not just bloat. Sometimes the things you want to move are just heavy and the physics of the challenge requires more power.